Reg
location: back to the wilderness
listening to: static
registered: 1999.11.22
posts: 6470
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"Reg, get a life."
I'm working on it, Gene.
"Ahmadinejad has repeatedly stated he wishes to wipe out Israel."
It seems from what I've read this "rumor" began in 2005 and has been repeated so many times I can't really blame anybody for thinking that. I can't seem to find anything that indicates it's true and Israeli intelligence sources have been quoted in various places also saying it's not true. Don't get me wrong, I don't think Ahmadinejad cares very much for Israel but I also think the media is trying to convince the western world that what he wants is to have full scale armageddon and that seems to be far from the truth.
"But he also has a nice nuclear program evolving, and maybe some day those weapons will be headed our way, brother, and for that reason (not his anti-Israel stance), he needs to be taken seriously."
Actually there is no indication that they have a "nuclear weapons" program but they do have a nuclear power program and it is being monitored. Does that make people nervous...sure...but they are within their rights to have a nuclear power program. Technically, we are not supposed to prevent them from doing so. I think the thing is with Iran our government has a pile of evidence that they have been a sponsor of terrorism and so with Cheney around he probably sees that as a "slam dunk" to go to war with Iran at this point. I have said in the past that it does appear that the Bush Administration seems to like the idea and finding a way to instigate some sort of activity between Israel and Iran is probably on their mind. Like selling bunker busters to Israel...that was nice and what I would consider a mistake. Also according to the experts this "nuclear proliferation" issue in the Middle East has been created by the Israeli government. Here's Scott Ritter:
------------------
"First of all, we need to understand that, as long as Israel has nuclear weapons, it has chosen to take a path that is inherently confrontational, and that's a very dangerous path. It's a path that says, 'We will confront you, and, if the situation warrants, we will use our ultimate weapon.' Now the Arab countries, the Muslim world, is not about to sit back and let this happen, so they will seek their own deterrent. We saw this in Iraq, not only with a nuclear deterrent but also with a biological weapons deterrent, the poor man's nuclear bomb that the Iraqis were developing to offset the Israeli nuclear superiority. So it doesn't make Israel safer. It makes Israel much less secure. Now we bring into the fold an additional element, that Israel has developed its nuclear weapons in violation of international agreements and standards and refuses to allow inspections of its nuclear facilities, its nuclear weapons production capacity. And, again, this is another signal that Israel is sending out that it's okay for Israel to turn its back on the rest of the world and to go it alone and create a nuclear weapon for its own security, but it's not okay for anybody else. It sets a double standard, which, again, only adds to the sense of frustration in the Arab world, and increases rather than decreases the likelihood that they will seek to acquire a nuclear capability that counterbalances the Israeli capability. Remember, Israel needs lots of nuclear weapons because they have lots of potential targets. Israel is such a small country that any potential nuclear enemy only needs a handful of nuclear weapons, and you can destroy Israel, so Israel has put itself at great risk with this nuclear weapons capability. I don't care what your strategy is; it will not succeed so long as Israel maintains a nuclear weapons capability. Israel's nuclear capability is the Achilles' heel of any attempt to bring weapons of mass destruction under control. Until which time Israel agrees to open itself up to full international inspections and to embark on a disarmament program to eliminate its nuclear weapons capability, all other Muslim nations will be seeking to acquire either directly or assisting other nations to acquire this capability."
------------------
"I know you don't like Israel, but whatever, Israel will not be the only target."
Well, if you are going to say stuff like that about me at least be accurate because I never said I don't like Israel. I don't really care for the Israeli government but I don't care for our government either...why is that an issue?
"This same old tired harangue about US supporting Israel, which is no big secret. Yes, the US supports Israel, they are practically attached at the hip."
I'm not sure what's tired about it and you are correct that it's not a secret. I never said it was.
"So, let's suppose the US completely stops supporting Israel. No weapons, no money. Then what?"
Well, it's more than that and I don't suggest we stop supporting Israel just put relations with them above board and speak openly about the issues they create and what can be done to fix them. You are aware that the United States government refers to the Israeli government as an "repressive regime", no?
"Do you really, truly think that radical Islamic regimes will then be friends with the US, and there won't be any further terrorism in the world? If so, the solution to all of our problems should be: stop supporting Israel. Is that your position...?"
Look, I think Israel is a friend to the United States and should remain as such but there is most obviously some problems there and have been for quite some time. I'm not saying to stop supporting Israel but I do think we should lean on them, as "friends", to do what needs to be done. As it stands our Israeli policy is nearly the same as our gays in the military policy, "Don't ask, don't tell." We just look the other way. Scott Ritter again:
-------
"We're at a situation where we rightly say that there should be no proliferation of nuclear weapons, and we come down hard on nation-states like Iraq, North Korea, and Iran. We turn a blind eye to our allies, Israel and Pakistan. Remember, Pakistan developed its nuclear capabilities in violation of the nonproliferation treaty, and we have not done anything to hold Pakistan to account in anything that's meaningful, so we have a double standard vis a vis our relations with other nations where we say it's bad for certain nations to pursue this capability, and it's okay for other nations to do it. Israel did not sign the nonproliferation treaty because Israel claims it is above that. Israel's national security precludes it entering into any such agreements. This is ludicrous. We have a situation where North Korea is withdrawing legally from its obligations under the nonproliferation treaty, and yet that sends everybody into a conundrum. Israel refuses even to acknowledge the legitimacy of that agreement as it applies to Israel -- and yet, on the other hand, Israel is the first to point an accusatory finger at nations that violate the nonproliferation treaty or don't want to be signatories to it. So it's a double standard, and, again, this is not good for Israeli security, and I'm someone who speaks from the standpoint of somebody who wants a secure Israel, who wants a safe Israel, who wants an Israeli state that can live in peace with its neighbors, so it's not as though I am on an anti-Israeli bent. I'm a friend of Israel saying to my friends in Israel, 'your nuclear policy is not doing you good.'"
--------
I don't blame Israel for this, in fact I think Israel is trying to do what they see as best for themselves and influencing American foreign policy is not just the domain of the Israelis...they just seem to do it better than others and have been given a free hand. That's our government's fault not theirs.
Basically the writing has been on the wall for a long time but we were warned by people including Albert Einstein.
Here's a letter to the New York Times from 1948:
---------------------
Letters to The Times New York Times December 4, 1948
New Palestine Party Visit of Menachem Begin and Aims of Political
Movement Discussed
TO THE EDITORS OF THE NEW YORK TIMES:
Among the most disturbing political phenomena of our times is the
emergence in the newly created state of Israel of the "Freedom Party"
(Tnuat Haherut), a political party closely akin in its organization,
methods, political philosophy and social appeal to the Nazi and Fascist
parties. It was formed out of the membership and following of the
former Irgun Zvai Leumi, a terrorist, right-wing, chauvinist
organization in Palestine.
The current visit of Menachem Begin, leader of this party, to the United
States is obviously calculated to give the impression of American
support for his party in the coming Israeli elections, and to cement
political ties with conservative Zionist elements in the United States.
Several Americans of national repute have lent their names to welcome
his visit. It is inconceivable that those who oppose fascism throughout
the world, if correctly informed as to Mr. Begin’s political record and
perspectives, could add their names and support to the movement he
represents.
Before irreparable damage is done by way of financial contributions,
public manifestations in Begin’s behalf, and the creation in Palestine
of the impression that a large segment of America supports Fascist
elements in Israel, the American public must be informed as to the
record and objectives of Mr. Begin and his movement.
The public avowals of Begin’s party are no guide whatever to its actual
character. Today they speak of freedom, democracy and anti-imperialism,
whereas until recently they openly preached the doctrine of the Fascist
state. It is in its actions that the terrorist party betrays its real
character; from its past actions we can judge what it may be expected to
do in the future.
Attack on Arab Village
A shocking example was their behavior in the Arab village of Deir
Yassin. This village, off the main roads and surrounded by Jewish
lands, had taken no part in the war, and had even fought off Arab bands
who wanted to use the village as their base. On April 9 (THE NEW YORK
TIMES), terrorist bands attacked this peaceful village, which was not a
military objective in the fighting, killed most of its inhabitants—240
men, women, and children—and kept a few of them alive to parade as
captives through the streets of Jerusalem. Most of the Jewish community
was horrified at the deed, and the Jewish Agency sent a telegram of
apology to King Abdullah of Trans-Jordan. But the terrorists, far from
being ashamed of their act, were proud of this massacre, publicized it
widely, and invited all the foreign correspondents present in the
country to view the heaped corpses and the general havoc at Deir Yassin.
The Deir Yassin incident exemplifies the character and actions of the
Freedom Party.
Within the Jewish community they have preached an admixture of
ultranationalism, religious mysticism, and racial superiority. Like
other Fascist parties they have been used to break strikes, and have
themselves pressed for the destruction of free trade unions. In their
stead they have proposed corporate unions on the Italian Fascist model.
During the last years of sporadic anti-British violence, the IZL and
Stern groups inaugurated a reign of terror in the Palestine Jewish
community. Teachers were beaten up for speaking against them, adults
were shot for not letting their children join them. By gangster
methods, beatings, window-smashing, and wide-spread robberies, the
terrorists intimidated the population and exacted a heavy tribute.
The people of the Freedom Party have had no part in the constructive
achievements in Palestine. They have reclaimed no land, built no
settlements, and only detracted from the Jewish defense activity. Their
much-publicized immigration endeavors were minute, and devoted mainly to
bringing in Fascist compatriots.
Discrepancies Seen
The discrepancies between the bold claims now being made by Begin and
his party, and their record of past performance in Palestine bear the
imprint of no ordinary political party. This is the unmistakable stamp
of a Fascist party for whom terrorism (against Jews, Arabs, and British
alike), and misrepresentation are means, and a "Leader State" is the
goal.
In the light of the foregoing considerations, it is imperative that the
truth about Mr. Begin and his movement be made known in this country. It
is all the more tragic that the top leadership of American Zionism has
refused to campaign against Begin’s efforts, or even to expose to its
own constituents the dangers to Israel from support to Begin.
The undersigned therefore take this means of publicly presenting a few
salient facts concerning Begin and his party; and of urging all
concerned not to support this latest manifestation of fascism.
ISIDORE ABRAMOWITZ, HANNAH ARENDT, ABRAHAM BRICK, RABBI JESSURUN
CARDOZO, ALBERT EINSTEIN, HERMAN EISEN, M.D., HAYIM FINEMAN, M. GALLEN,
M.D., H.H. HARRIS, ZELIG S. HARRIS, SIDNEY HOOK, FRED KARUSH, BRURIA
KAUFMAN, IRMA L. LINDHEIM, NACHMAN MAISEL, SEYMOUR MELMAN, MYER D.
MENDELSON, M.D., HARRY M. OSLINSKY, SAMUEL PITLICK, FRITZ ROHRLICH,
LOUIS P. ROCKER, RUTH SAGIS, ITZHAK SANKOWSKY, I.J. SHOENBERG, SAMUEL
SHUMAN, M. SINGER, IRMA WOLFE, STEFAN WOLFE.
New York, Dec. 2, 1948
–--
'The only way to avoid getting crushed by absurdity, is to humbly include the absurd in our calculations.'
'The only way to avoid getting crushed by absurdity, is to humbly include the absurd in our calculations.'
Reg
(view)
"Reg, get a life."
I'm working on it, Gene.
"Ahmadinejad has repeatedly stated he wishes to wipe out Israel."
It seems from what I've read this "rumor" began in 2005 and has been repeated so many times I can't really blame anybody for thinking that. I can't seem to find anything that indicates it's true and Israeli intelligence sources have been quoted in various places also saying it's not true. Don't get me wrong, I don't think Ahmadinejad cares very much for Israel but I also think the media is trying to convince the western world that what he wants is to have full scale armageddon and that seems to be far from the truth.
"But he also has a nice nuclear program evolving, and maybe some day those weapons will be headed our way, brother, and for that reason (not his anti-Israel stance), he needs to be taken seriously."
Actually there is no indication that they have a "nuclear weapons" program but they do have a nuclear power program and it is being monitored. Does that make people nervous...sure...but they are within their rights to have a nuclear power program. Technically, we are not supposed to prevent them from doing so. I think the thing is with Iran our government has a pile of evidence that they have been a sponsor of terrorism and so with Cheney around he probably sees that as a "slam dunk" to go to war with Iran at this point. I have said in the past that it does appear that the Bush Administration seems to like the idea and finding a way to instigate some sort of activity between Israel and Iran is probably on their mind. Like selling bunker busters to Israel...that was nice and what I would consider a mistake. Also according to the experts this "nuclear proliferation" issue in the Middle East has been created by the Israeli government. Here's Scott Ritter:
------------------
"First of all, we need to understand that, as long as Israel has nuclear weapons, it has chosen to take a path that is inherently confrontational, and that's a very dangerous path. It's a path that says, 'We will confront you, and, if the situation warrants, we will use our ultimate weapon.' Now the Arab countries, the Muslim world, is not about to sit back and let this happen, so they will seek their own deterrent. We saw this in Iraq, not only with a nuclear deterrent but also with a biological weapons deterrent, the poor man's nuclear bomb that the Iraqis were developing to offset the Israeli nuclear superiority. So it doesn't make Israel safer. It makes Israel much less secure. Now we bring into the fold an additional element, that Israel has developed its nuclear weapons in violation of international agreements and standards and refuses to allow inspections of its nuclear facilities, its nuclear weapons production capacity. And, again, this is another signal that Israel is sending out that it's okay for Israel to turn its back on the rest of the world and to go it alone and create a nuclear weapon for its own security, but it's not okay for anybody else. It sets a double standard, which, again, only adds to the sense of frustration in the Arab world, and increases rather than decreases the likelihood that they will seek to acquire a nuclear capability that counterbalances the Israeli capability. Remember, Israel needs lots of nuclear weapons because they have lots of potential targets. Israel is such a small country that any potential nuclear enemy only needs a handful of nuclear weapons, and you can destroy Israel, so Israel has put itself at great risk with this nuclear weapons capability. I don't care what your strategy is; it will not succeed so long as Israel maintains a nuclear weapons capability. Israel's nuclear capability is the Achilles' heel of any attempt to bring weapons of mass destruction under control. Until which time Israel agrees to open itself up to full international inspections and to embark on a disarmament program to eliminate its nuclear weapons capability, all other Muslim nations will be seeking to acquire either directly or assisting other nations to acquire this capability."
------------------
"I know you don't like Israel, but whatever, Israel will not be the only target."
Well, if you are going to say stuff like that about me at least be accurate because I never said I don't like Israel. I don't really care for the Israeli government but I don't care for our government either...why is that an issue?
"This same old tired harangue about US supporting Israel, which is no big secret. Yes, the US supports Israel, they are practically attached at the hip."
I'm not sure what's tired about it and you are correct that it's not a secret. I never said it was.
"So, let's suppose the US completely stops supporting Israel. No weapons, no money. Then what?"
Well, it's more than that and I don't suggest we stop supporting Israel just put relations with them above board and speak openly about the issues they create and what can be done to fix them. You are aware that the United States government refers to the Israeli government as an "repressive regime", no?
"Do you really, truly think that radical Islamic regimes will then be friends with the US, and there won't be any further terrorism in the world? If so, the solution to all of our problems should be: stop supporting Israel. Is that your position...?"
Look, I think Israel is a friend to the United States and should remain as such but there is most obviously some problems there and have been for quite some time. I'm not saying to stop supporting Israel but I do think we should lean on them, as "friends", to do what needs to be done. As it stands our Israeli policy is nearly the same as our gays in the military policy, "Don't ask, don't tell." We just look the other way. Scott Ritter again:
-------
"We're at a situation where we rightly say that there should be no proliferation of nuclear weapons, and we come down hard on nation-states like Iraq, North Korea, and Iran. We turn a blind eye to our allies, Israel and Pakistan. Remember, Pakistan developed its nuclear capabilities in violation of the nonproliferation treaty, and we have not done anything to hold Pakistan to account in anything that's meaningful, so we have a double standard vis a vis our relations with other nations where we say it's bad for certain nations to pursue this capability, and it's okay for other nations to do it. Israel did not sign the nonproliferation treaty because Israel claims it is above that. Israel's national security precludes it entering into any such agreements. This is ludicrous. We have a situation where North Korea is withdrawing legally from its obligations under the nonproliferation treaty, and yet that sends everybody into a conundrum. Israel refuses even to acknowledge the legitimacy of that agreement as it applies to Israel -- and yet, on the other hand, Israel is the first to point an accusatory finger at nations that violate the nonproliferation treaty or don't want to be signatories to it. So it's a double standard, and, again, this is not good for Israeli security, and I'm someone who speaks from the standpoint of somebody who wants a secure Israel, who wants a safe Israel, who wants an Israeli state that can live in peace with its neighbors, so it's not as though I am on an anti-Israeli bent. I'm a friend of Israel saying to my friends in Israel, 'your nuclear policy is not doing you good.'"
--------
I don't blame Israel for this, in fact I think Israel is trying to do what they see as best for themselves and influencing American foreign policy is not just the domain of the Israelis...they just seem to do it better than others and have been given a free hand. That's our government's fault not theirs.
Basically the writing has been on the wall for a long time but we were warned by people including Albert Einstein.
Here's a letter to the New York Times from 1948:
---------------------
Letters to The Times New York Times December 4, 1948
New Palestine Party Visit of Menachem Begin and Aims of Political
Movement Discussed
TO THE EDITORS OF THE NEW YORK TIMES:
Among the most disturbing political phenomena of our times is the
emergence in the newly created state of Israel of the "Freedom Party"
(Tnuat Haherut), a political party closely akin in its organization,
methods, political philosophy and social appeal to the Nazi and Fascist
parties. It was formed out of the membership and following of the
former Irgun Zvai Leumi, a terrorist, right-wing, chauvinist
organization in Palestine.
The current visit of Menachem Begin, leader of this party, to the United
States is obviously calculated to give the impression of American
support for his party in the coming Israeli elections, and to cement
political ties with conservative Zionist elements in the United States.
Several Americans of national repute have lent their names to welcome
his visit. It is inconceivable that those who oppose fascism throughout
the world, if correctly informed as to Mr. Begin’s political record and
perspectives, could add their names and support to the movement he
represents.
Before irreparable damage is done by way of financial contributions,
public manifestations in Begin’s behalf, and the creation in Palestine
of the impression that a large segment of America supports Fascist
elements in Israel, the American public must be informed as to the
record and objectives of Mr. Begin and his movement.
The public avowals of Begin’s party are no guide whatever to its actual
character. Today they speak of freedom, democracy and anti-imperialism,
whereas until recently they openly preached the doctrine of the Fascist
state. It is in its actions that the terrorist party betrays its real
character; from its past actions we can judge what it may be expected to
do in the future.
Attack on Arab Village
A shocking example was their behavior in the Arab village of Deir
Yassin. This village, off the main roads and surrounded by Jewish
lands, had taken no part in the war, and had even fought off Arab bands
who wanted to use the village as their base. On April 9 (THE NEW YORK
TIMES), terrorist bands attacked this peaceful village, which was not a
military objective in the fighting, killed most of its inhabitants—240
men, women, and children—and kept a few of them alive to parade as
captives through the streets of Jerusalem. Most of the Jewish community
was horrified at the deed, and the Jewish Agency sent a telegram of
apology to King Abdullah of Trans-Jordan. But the terrorists, far from
being ashamed of their act, were proud of this massacre, publicized it
widely, and invited all the foreign correspondents present in the
country to view the heaped corpses and the general havoc at Deir Yassin.
The Deir Yassin incident exemplifies the character and actions of the
Freedom Party.
Within the Jewish community they have preached an admixture of
ultranationalism, religious mysticism, and racial superiority. Like
other Fascist parties they have been used to break strikes, and have
themselves pressed for the destruction of free trade unions. In their
stead they have proposed corporate unions on the Italian Fascist model.
During the last years of sporadic anti-British violence, the IZL and
Stern groups inaugurated a reign of terror in the Palestine Jewish
community. Teachers were beaten up for speaking against them, adults
were shot for not letting their children join them. By gangster
methods, beatings, window-smashing, and wide-spread robberies, the
terrorists intimidated the population and exacted a heavy tribute.
The people of the Freedom Party have had no part in the constructive
achievements in Palestine. They have reclaimed no land, built no
settlements, and only detracted from the Jewish defense activity. Their
much-publicized immigration endeavors were minute, and devoted mainly to
bringing in Fascist compatriots.
Discrepancies Seen
The discrepancies between the bold claims now being made by Begin and
his party, and their record of past performance in Palestine bear the
imprint of no ordinary political party. This is the unmistakable stamp
of a Fascist party for whom terrorism (against Jews, Arabs, and British
alike), and misrepresentation are means, and a "Leader State" is the
goal.
In the light of the foregoing considerations, it is imperative that the
truth about Mr. Begin and his movement be made known in this country. It
is all the more tragic that the top leadership of American Zionism has
refused to campaign against Begin’s efforts, or even to expose to its
own constituents the dangers to Israel from support to Begin.
The undersigned therefore take this means of publicly presenting a few
salient facts concerning Begin and his party; and of urging all
concerned not to support this latest manifestation of fascism.
ISIDORE ABRAMOWITZ, HANNAH ARENDT, ABRAHAM BRICK, RABBI JESSURUN
CARDOZO, ALBERT EINSTEIN, HERMAN EISEN, M.D., HAYIM FINEMAN, M. GALLEN,
M.D., H.H. HARRIS, ZELIG S. HARRIS, SIDNEY HOOK, FRED KARUSH, BRURIA
KAUFMAN, IRMA L. LINDHEIM, NACHMAN MAISEL, SEYMOUR MELMAN, MYER D.
MENDELSON, M.D., HARRY M. OSLINSKY, SAMUEL PITLICK, FRITZ ROHRLICH,
LOUIS P. ROCKER, RUTH SAGIS, ITZHAK SANKOWSKY, I.J. SHOENBERG, SAMUEL
SHUMAN, M. SINGER, IRMA WOLFE, STEFAN WOLFE.
New York, Dec. 2, 1948
–--
'The only way to avoid getting crushed by absurdity, is to humbly include the absurd in our calculations.'
'The only way to avoid getting crushed by absurdity, is to humbly include the absurd in our calculations.'
