EEE> What if these people, IN THEIR OWN MINDS, are truly doing what they see as just, patriotic and the way to their own freedom What if these people, IN THEIR OWN MINDS, are truly doing what they see as just, patriotic and the way to their own freedom What if these people, IN THEIR OWN MINDS, are truly doing what they see as just, patriotic and the way to their own freedom

I'd say yes, the Iraqi's and presumably the non Iraqi Moslem's who are coming to help war against the US, presumably because they too recognize they are likely to be next, view us as invaders and ARE fighting for their way of life. It does not make me proud.

EEE> Now, I am certainly not offering excuses, justification or acceptance for these people, but that is how complex the issue is and for our government to go around yelling that these people are nuts or psychotics only makes the fighting of this problem that much harder. Now, I am certainly not offering excuses, justification or acceptance for these people, but that is how complex the issue is and for our government to go around yelling that these people are nuts or psychotics only makes the fighting of this problem that much harder. Now, I am certainly not offering excuses, justification or acceptance for these people, but that is how complex the issue is and for our government to go around yelling that these people are nuts or psychotics only makes the fighting of this problem that much harder.

This wouldn't be a complex decision if it were happening in any of our neighborhoods, on the contrary. Besides the various bait and switch rationale(s) in the selling of this war to the American public, the item that disturbs me the most outside of the secrecy is the fact that our dead nor their caskets can be shown(honored) on the television or in print. That Bush is enforcing this policy speaks volumes. And claiming that the Clinton administration is to blame for the passage of that law doesn't hold water given the official unofficial border policy.

EEE> They probably all knew that Hussein didn't have the WMDs that we said he did. They probably all knew that Hussein didn't have the WMDs that we said he did. They probably all knew that Hussein didn't have the WMDs that we said he did.

Iraqi's probably didn't care. But the American public should care that when Saddam did have them and used them, that we provided them and approved their use. If that isn't monsterous!

EEE> They also probably all knew that Iraq wasn't truly an immediate threat to the US. They also probably all knew that Iraq wasn't truly an immediate threat to the US. They also probably all knew that Iraq wasn't truly an immediate threat to the US.

Could someone give us a reason why Iraq would bother with the US if we weren't interferring in their world? Thanks for the cash, here's your oil, sure ya don't want a camal ride park.

EEE> Also, there is probably a consensus that we want their land only for the oil. And then TO THEM we invade their country unjustly. What are they expected to do? They probably see us as the richest and most consumptive country in the world (especially energy) and realize we need to maintain our ways of life any way we can. Also, there is probably a consensus that we want their land only for the oil. And then TO THEM we invade their country unjustly. What are they expected to do? They probably see us as the richest and most consumptive country in the world (especially energy) and realize we need to maintain our ways of life any way we can. Also, there is probably a consensus that we want their land only for the oil. And then TO THEM we invade their country unjustly. What are they expected to do? They probably see us as the richest and most consumptive country in the world (especially energy) and realize we need to maintain our ways of life any way we can.

If they're like Americans, English, Aussie's or anyone else, 95% of them could prolly care less and are more concerned with daily issues closer to home. But then we arrive guns and bombs ablaze, destroy and disrupt their basic infrastruture, proclaim it was rickety(though working), make promises regarding the resumption of water, sewage and electricity, that remain to be completed long after the promised deadlines have passed. Making ourselves a local daily concern.

Although it is indisputeable we are in Iraq to control strategic resources,

(Google: Project for the New American Century [PDF: Rebuilding America’s Defenses: Strategy, Forces and Resources For a New Century])

frankly, I believe we are trying to start a civil war. Not only in Iraq, but in the entire region. Call it control through chaos. A form of, let 'em do it to themselves, genocide.

Oh stop gasping. This administration, love or hate 'em, is full of PNAC people, and are that evil and more.

EEE> And hell, when is the last time that anyone in the US examined our middle east policies? Let's be honest here - they fucking suck. And hell, when is the last time that anyone in the US examined our middle east policies? Let's be honest here - they fucking suck. And hell, when is the last time that anyone in the US examined our middle east policies? Let's be honest here - they fucking suck.

I refer you to the PNAC foundation above and any of their cohorts, for starters.

http://www.newamericancentury.org/ RebuildingAmericasDefenses.pdf

Too, look up the Jay Bookman piece: http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/ article2319.htm

plenty of leads and background there.

EEE> We have cozied up to the most terrible of leaders who have repressed their own people for decades as long as they act in our interests. We have cozied up to the most terrible of leaders who have repressed their own people for decades as long as they act in our interests. We have cozied up to the most terrible of leaders who have repressed their own people for decades as long as they act in our interests.

Yep, to your conclusion.

Better reexamine the first part of that thought though sir. 'Cozied up', more often than not should be, 'hand picked' or 'put into place' or 'trained', by the US government(or US controlled OGA's).

Just like we're doing now.

Even dictating such seemingly mundane items in their 'new' constitution, that citizens must no longer save local heirloom seed stocks. (If obeyed, another means of outside control and manipulation is put into place via the food stream as the seeds purchased from our suppliers will not reproduce to form and must be repurchased from approved sources, of which there are few. A connecting thought: The IMF and World Bank, as part of their humanitarian aid efforts(LOL) to developing nations, has demanded the same conditions of 75 nations before they would provide them, usually, additional aid. Interestingly, even if not obeyed, eventually, the GM seeds used by those who do obey, will compromise compromise the integrity of the similiar types of heirlooms. Somebody put some thought into that, don'tcha think? o) Imagine it being against the law to save your favorite tomato seed in the US! That will soon be covered in some of these treaties that are being pressed upon us.

EEE> So really, should it be any surprise how things are going in the Middle East? So really, should it be any surprise how things are going in the Middle East? So really, should it be any surprise how things are going in the Middle East?

1700+ dead from hostilities or suicide

42,000+ wounded and/or maimed

120,000+ Iraqi's dead

also 'illegal' immigrants, should they survive, can gain citizenship by signing up.

Is it just as planned? If not absolutely, close enough. Hundreds of billions of taxpayer promises are being funneled into a select group of private hands; and billions are disappearing within the provisional government and the contractors. I'd say the powers that be are reasonably satisfied what with the promise TWELVE MORE YEARS already floated and record petrol profits.

EEE> I'm just sick and tired of our government and politicians selling this war as a comic book. The issues are more complex than "hate our freedoms" and all that other bullshit and our young men and women (as well as Iraqi civilians) are dying for this portrayed cartoon. I'm just sick and tired of our government and politicians selling this war as a comic book. The issues are more complex than "hate our freedoms" and all that other bullshit and our young men and women (as well as Iraqi civilians) are dying for this portrayed cartoon. I'm just sick and tired of our government and politicians selling this war as a comic book. The issues are more complex than "hate our freedoms" and all that other bullshit and our young men and women (as well as Iraqi civilians) are dying for this portrayed cartoon.

Me too Eric, me too. I still wouldn't approve of this invasion, primarily because we should already be energy self-sufficient given the troubles/warning of the early 70's, but I would at least respect my government treating us adults by providing adult information:

ALL RIGHT PEOPLE, LISTEN UP, THIS IS YOUR PRESIDENT!!! We were going to tell you a little tail about one of my youthful business mates masterminding and financing a worldwide terrorism network, but the truth is we've just pissed a lot of people off because we believe we have this mandate to meddle in the every countries business. Naturally it's for their own good! And yes, our oversears profit while a smidgen trickles down to you. So anyhow, we're invading Iraq, and then the middle east at large, and anywhere else we can reasonably control large supplies of oil. If we don't someone will. Why, because oil is crucial to every developed or developing economy in the world. It's us or them, so we're gonna sacrifice a few(comparitively) of our own, create a civil war or two, drop some tactical nukes if need be, and generally kill off as many of these not like us dumb asses as we can, while keepin' the oil flowin'. Now I hope y'all won't be dismayed, but we need more profits, so you will see an increase in home heating oil and gas fer yer car. If ya complain too much, well...keep yer eye on how bad they're gonna have it in Iraq. This is how it works for you, we keep the competition in other areas of the world poor(cause we control the flow) and you can keep buying the non essestial shit that keeps you malealbe, amused and distracted, on the cheap. Got the picture? How 'bout a big group cheer? 'LET'S KICK ASS, LET'S KICK ASS, CAUSE OUR SHIT DON'T STINK!!!' Dick will lead the cheer tomorrow morning, BE THERE, or your neighbor may turn you in.

At least that would be honest.