This is between me & Pat now. Others may want to avert their eyes.
No Pat, you didn't ask me for books on pacifism. You asked for "specific examples that lead to extended periods of peace where there once was strife" and that's what I gave you. You can't dispute that those individuals- those books I mentioned- had a major impact on the world around them and have remained an inspiration to those who are looking for a non-military way of changing the world.
No doubt they were noble but in the end they are like the U.N. or a castrated bull. They can only advise.
Well Pat, the independence of India from the British Empire, the non-violent end of the Soviet empire in Czechoslovakia, the passage of the Civil Rights Act in the USA, and the end of apartheid in South Africa may be due to the "advice" of "a castrated bull" but I'll bet it means a lot to the people who have benefited from these changes. And don't try & slip your attitude about the UN into this discussion, Start another thread if you've got that ax to grind.
I would be the first to say that there are times that non-violent protest is ineffectual. Nazi Germany is everyone's example and I agree. I probably would have volunteered to pick up a gun and fight the Nazis.
Ed you ought to go back and read what the pacifist were saying about Hitler back in the 40's. Not a threat.
Never implied that Hitler shouldn't have been taken out. Go back and read what I wrote. Lots of "good" Americans, just like you, were decidedly not pacifists, but were not willing to go to war. They were called "isolationists". Don't be dumping your load on pacifists here.
The current state of affairs in the middle east is the result of warlords unable to think outside the box of tribal grievances.
Whoa Nellie, glad you simplified that to just a couple of troublesome warlords. I was beginning to think we were in big trouble
There's a long history of entrenched grievances in the middle east- "your grandfather killed my grandfather" - that sort of thing. The Israelis and the Arabs will NEVER get beyond their current state of endless war unless they find a new way to look at things. if you think that the current campaign is going to result in anything then I expect you & I are going to be having the same conversation about ten years from now.
If there were a Gandhi or a Martin Luther King on the world stage there who knows what kind of change might occur? Certainly, the way things are going- have gone- are not working there, and probably never will.
Earth to Ed. If you think either Gandhi or MLK would have been able to solve this situation you might as well drink the Koolaid now because you are not grasping the obvious. What magic spell do you think they would have up their sleeve?
No magic. Gandhi and MLK were superior, articulate leaders who lived at a time when enough people were willing to hear their messages and take action. Change happens when enough people say "no" to a policy or program. It's not that hard to grasp Pat. It's a lot harder to carry out. People have to move beyond their immediate reactions of hatred and revenge.
And stop with that overworked "drink the Kool-Aid" analogy. Jeez, it's soooo 2005!
I really encourage you to read and think outside of your usual sources of input. Pacifism is not a passive, apathetic philosophy. Pacifists have been tortured, beaten, and maligned for their actions throughout history and I'd argue with you that it takes more balls to be a principled pacifist than a gun-totin' zombie in the name of Allah, Jesus, or Zardoz.
Sound like they still have not learned from history. Ed what ended WWII? Ghandi? MLK? Had to throw Jesus in that mix, funny I have not seen any Christians cutting off innocent civilians heads in the name of Christ
Read about the Spanish Inquistion or the Crusades then. They might be available in Cliff Notes...
Read about the Freedom Riders in the American south in the 1960's and ask yourself if you'd have half the balls those folks did....
Enlighten me
What do you think I've been trying to do Paterick?
