I knew you were Ed, and as I have an affinity for sarcasm too, I'd be disappointed if you weren't attempting to stay in tip-top in shape.-)

~~~

Well you thought I was being a blue meanie so I wanted to inject a little humor.

gm Yeah, I thought you did seem to be blue too. Perhaps if you reread that, you'll see I was concerned for you, not Pat. Pat can take your barbs, and give em back just fine! Again, as stated, I was worried about your spirit. ~~~

To be honest I didn't think my reply to Pat was mean...he pretty much by his own admission brings that sort of stuff to the table and I don't know (as I've said) if he means to be funny or just provoke but it would be nice if he once and a while looked beyond the talk show hosts and Republican talking points. I mean it sucks to think that is as deep as it gets for a lot of folks. I would hope, you know, people could just look a little deeper than that.

gm As you surely know, I agree with you about the talking points and the talking heads generally. Not that there's anything wrong with it, but I view most of them as propagandist for hire only(I'm fine with propaganda, UNLESS: it's being sold as even handed, or calling for the silencing of diverse opinions). Especially the purportedly most popular talking heads. That said, they must include elements of truth or no one would listen(& that includes Rush). Which as I believe you note later is a credit to the folks who are looking for reliable information, at least they are seeking explanation. I fall solidly in that category, formerly. Also in that portion of the info seeking publics defense, where do they turn? Air America isn't unbiased, and runs cover for their pet philosophy(Dems & Progressivism, otherwise known, in practice & the philosophically texts as socialism or communism).

Democratic's generally still lay down cover for Clinton's perjury. The AMA suspended his license to practice law, what?! for 5 years. Perhaps impeachment is too severe a punishment(Constitutionally speaking; I recent browsed what seemed a worthy argument to that effect) but he should not have escaped legal penalty as associated with his government position, his pension, something of permanent substance. And please don't avow you weren't embarrassed for our country or its children, by the when, where and him and Dick Morris on the phone, and who knows what else escaped even watchers like yourself or Madsen. Look at how quickly the Guckert/Gannon thing disappeared. What about the whole Anthrax in the Capitol episode, which too simply quit being news. Postal workers died, but all major media suddenly drops the subject, essentially simultaneously. This isn't mathematical theory, ours & theirs don't cancel out each sides indiscretions. Would anyone dispute what might be characterized as an accumulation of negative national karma?

And finally, it's a lot of work(a lot of work!) to scour the net to listen to the kinds of folks who are straying from Establishment Think(left, right and moderate, it's largely theater designed to support the present paradigm, keep cushy positions, not improve the general welfare. That's not how, or why! overwrought widespread empires do what they to. By and For the People falls by the wayside; lost until the corruption runs its course and collapses from within. Perhaps you don't see it, and who could blame anyone's first reaction of averting their eyes BUT you are living in the latter stage of this nations former glory, teetering on a tipping point that likely cannot be avoided). And then, should one avail oneself of info outside the established mythology, WELL, rearranging ones established worldview isn't nearly as easy as sincerely standing up before a world full of strangers and saying, I am an alcoholic, and I must stop believing this bunk that I know I need to stop thinking before I can change(& that ties in with your wish, and mine, for our nation. The difference is there's not much of a recovery group for those who open their eyes to the ugly realities(say of our government in this example). It may soon be a jailable offense for those who question the accepted American mythology. Can you say, enemy combatant, or perhaps Guantanamo . ~~~

I know you seem to have given up on our government, and it seems to some extent mankind in general, but there are still enough checks and balances in place that if we had an informed public we could make changes within our current system. Our problem is that we don't have an informed public and we have an abundance of people who wish to provide us with the wrong information for political purposes. Basically, I thought your baseball comment was bullshit and if that's how you see things it seems you have already quit. Which is fine, that's up to you, but it does alter how people will view what you say. I can say it alters it for me anyway.

gm Actually Reg, I haven't given up on government. Government is a necessary evil. Thanks to my HD collapsing, I don't have my quotations file readily available, but perhaps you will recall that one of the founders made a rather succinct explanation, of why, some form of government is absolutely necessary among groups of men(of any size). With which I would agree.

Although I have given up on the Federal Government organizationally(& you should also, because the Executive and the Senate are no longer working for the American people); I have not given up on the need for government, and as my post clearly stated, I encourage people to become more involved by spending their emotional angst/energy on the politicians nearest their reach.

As to your assertion that, "there are still enough checks and balances in place", with it's two qualifications, "if we had an informed public we could make changes within our current system", I'd have to say you are sorely mistaken regarding the former, even if the latter could be instantly accomplished. Posse Comitatus has been put aside(I believe in the Warner Bill), the President has recently moved more Constitutionally unheard of powers to the Executive, including being able to declare martial law for any reason whatsoever, even for unspecified reason(which Leahy is raising Hell about, thankfully), the 17th Amendment certainly unbalanced our checks and balances(& it wasn't even properly ratified) and so on. This country is on the verge of a recreation of German fascism, including citizen work camps(which shouldn't be so surprising since leading American(& British) financial entities/ industrialists(while our respective govs averted their eyes) created Nazi Germany(& the USSR for that matter). (Through financial support and other verifiable machinations demonstrating intent.)

So let us keep in mind the phrase, government is a necessary evil. It would take very little time to explain why government is necessary, while detailing the evils of overgrown government, not unlike the growth of the legal coe( say ours ) could take a lifetime. And still,-) you and I would disagree as to the limits of government(read Bastiat's, the Law, although I expect you have). So yeah, I absolutely believe the Federal Government is beyond repair. However, I'd be more than pleased to start over using our original Declaration, Constitution and Bill of Rights as founding documents. Curiously, something our own government doesn't do during its Nation Building sprees. Never has, has it? Funny that ... too.

If I'd given up on people, why would I be encouraging useful action(as opposed to getting ugly with one another herein? Why would I be concerned for you: a guy who of late gets uncharacteristically short. Why would Pat offer suggestions to Dan on how to fix the Board(just thought I'd toss that in since it hasn't been noted, thanks to Dan's mention)? But I gotta tell ya Reg, I'm frustrated too. I haven't given up, I've become more active, and expect to build on that until, "... they come to take me away, we're coming to take them away, they're coming to take me away, because my kind get in the way of tyranny". I suspect a free thinker like you will be collected too, as you've mentioned yourself, though perhaps tongue in cheek. ~~~

So a guy like Pat that does seem to have an interest in politics and world affairs, (which puts him ahead of the curve - really don't laugh at me here people) takes the time to listen to his talk shows and read whatever it is he reads but that time he has spent, which in reality is valuable time, has been wasted because the people he depended upon to bring him the info he needs to really know what is happening in the world have made their best effort to betray him and confuse him for their political and in the end monetary gain.

gm Most of what we are fed -ABC, CBS, FOX, NBC, cable land, radio talking heads, news mags, newspapers of note, internet disinfo and especially backwater Gannett papers are little more than fluff designed to obscure 'what is'. For instance, it's been three or for days since our new Moslem US Congressman favorably compared Pres Bush to Adolf Hilter. I read about it in the Guardian. WND carried it. But it hasn't been splashed anywhere else in the major, or minor, MSM. Why is that? Wouldn't you agree, that is a sensational story? ~~~

So in the end he does not even know the right questions to ask. He has been so misinformed that he is asking about Armitage! I always have thought that at some point all these people that call themselves Republicans or Conservatives will wake up to the fact that their guys have been lying to them and distorting things. I'm not saying only Republicans lie but they seem to lie a lot more often and to a far more vicious end than the Democrats do. It seems to me that the Republican Party has suffered a complete collapse since about the mid 1950s and it has been hijacked by the wrong bunch of people. They no longer present a second option and by their own admission (just listen to them) they no longer represent the people of the United States. Their big three candidates Rudy, Mitt, and Fred are all openly standing up before the public and lying their asses off. That's a beautiful thing. Fred Thompson is part of a group raising funds for Libby and has hired Rove's buddy to work on his campaign...umm...that's pretty much an open admission that he is an extension of our current administration and if elected will be covering their ass and conducting business as usual.

gm I couldn't agree more to the hijacking/compromising of that party too. As fortune, or my misfortune would have it, I have to argue this very point on a Vermont Republican list. That being, today's Republican is nearly never remotely conservative. They're either a moderate communist, or if of the neo-con variety, a fascist movement in the making. But in either case they are a socialist variant(severely top-down heavyhanded organizations, regardless if global business or government leadership has the upper hand in the working chain of command); decidedly not a limited government, representative republic classical liberal/conservative. But someone has to do it(duty calls and all that rot, right Mick?).

And before you Dems/Progressives lose your minds, you too need to recognize you are supporter of communist theology. Do any of you recall that until the 40's this country had a Communist Party. I believe a guy named Eugene V. Debs was their perennial Presidential candidate. It may have been the 50's but I think it was in the 40's when he was asked why he wasn't running for the Presidency anymore, and, he correctly pointed out that the Democratic Party under FDR, in every point, had completely enacted all of the remaining portions of the Communist Manifesto, so there was no need for the Communist Party to run a candidate any longer, their goals had been achieved.

Are you sure you are asking the right questions Reg? Just a question, no castigation. Speaking for myself, I'm always questioning my assumptions.

Something I would say to all sides is that Libby got to the heart of the reality when he said he wasn't going to take the fall for this. But then he shut up and did, and was pardoned because somebody was going to take the fall, and now it can be said that justice was served, when all of it was fer show, all of it. Because the reality is, the powers that be, are thumbing their nose at American citizenry. Problem is, folks don't want to come to such obvious conclusions.

It's good that y'all inform me and Pat and whoever else cares of underlying details but speaking for myself, I know the Capitol is infested with rats, and too, the guilty rarely have to fall on their own sword, and finally, that such incidences as these are barely the tip of the iceberg corruption.

Did you know our US Senators refer to themselves as Cardinals? Saw it on PBS. ~~~

So, I am not mean. I am just sick of seeing people manipulated and in some ways it's sad to think that in reality I'm on Pat's side but he often sees me as an enemy to his beliefs. How should I respond to that?

gm As mentioned earlier, I was concerned about the possible change in your spirit. I'd never read you to be so mean spirited previous to recent months. Angry, that's right, it's your anger less than mean spiritedness. Okay.

As you might deduce, I too am sick of people being manipulated. As wide open as I believe my own eyes to be, I still often find I've been hoodwinked. Only last night I discovered someone whom we trusted was backstabbing us. He was defrauding us, trading on our business name(among others). Some time overnight his web site was suspended by his host. Small victory. But politically, woew! Who to trust? It turns out, Ron Paul doesn't support net neutrality. All the other candidates, either major party, possibly except Tancredo along with Ron Paul, are anti-American.

Now before you lose your mind again, you have to get it through your head that those who support globalism(Free Trade Agreements(not the same as Bastiat's free trade), the UN running the world(ala Agenda 21. Kyoto & other global rules that are merely awaiting opportunity to be enforced), regional government, the NAU/SPP.gov(movement that's creeping up on American's who are primarily unaware, and/or dismiss it as a conspiracy theory, despite a 1000 pages of FOIA documents regarding the SPP's trilateral internal operations}, NAIS, RealID, other specifics I'm surely forgetting and most especially the end of the American Bill of Rights and thus America's fairly unique(humanly speaking) form of governance and not if, but rather when either the Haig, or the NAU parliament, or the FTAA parliament(tp be HQed in Atlanta) feel free to overrule American law because our officialdom ceases to interfere, which pattern is already developing, that will be the completion of the cessation of even the facade of American sovereignty. Arguably, all of those organizations, and/or programs, are working toward that very end, the end of the US Constitution in practice).

I know what you're saying about, "often sees me as an enemy to his beliefs". And you are; and visa versa. But this isn't a shooting war, as yet, thankfully. But it may be someday(more in a moment). . Sometimes I view you, and others, as enemies of human liberty. (Only occasionally do I perceive anyone here viewing me as their enemy). But that was what my post was about.(apart from the personal note). Let's air our views here. Let's try to reason with one another. Let's spell out the back stories others likely haven't heard. I expect that from a few of you, I hope for it! That's why I listened to Air America(when it was available here), for the other side, the other side is blind too. Only way to approach a full picture. I had a realization as a young fella that if you wanted to know the truth of something, you have to look around the edges. You must look where it's suggested you shouldn't. Not unlike the whole magician misdirection thing, look where you're being drawn away from. The victors write the history, they'd prefer the populace repeat, if not believe. (why else bury the 60's era assassinations by sealing the records and evidence from view until such a time as an insignificant number who participated or were even in living memory of the events remain. As one type of governmental obfuscation, I mean, how can anyone believe JFK wasn't an internal coup de tat? And so on ....)

But let's spend our emotional energy(venom), not on each other, but on our Pols, the ones we can reach out and touch, the persons who(potentially) can actually do something about our grievances and concerns. We attended a lefty, how state government works(to their credit, nobody else is doing that sort of thing) this spring. One of the things I found very surprising was, the making of a public hearing statement advise. Which I experienced in person later and found to be true. The advise was, making three succinct points and close with a short personal(emotional) moving story. I couldn't believe that would be the most effective course with politicians, but subsequent experience has taught me I was sadly mistaken.

The worst of it is Reg/All, I can understand folks having difficulty believing something based on faith alone, BUT, I have much less sympathy for those who are wilfully ignorant of indisputable experiential evidence.

Sorry I went so long, it seemed necessary.

peaceably, and hopeful for maximum human liberty despite the immense evidence to the contrary