WHAT IS TERRORISM? Tonight - we're grappling with terrorism. What is it, what can we do about it and can it ever be justified? To talk about it - one man who admits to having been a terrorist, others who've spent a lifetime trying to understand or fight terrorism, and its victims, those directly affected by the violence. Also tonight - a special feature of the new Insight, scattered through our audience each week a different group of Australians chosen by market researchers to represent a cross-section of the community. Later we'll let you know how you too can join us.

JENNY BROCKIE: 'Terrorism' is a word we hear a lot these days, but do we really know what it means?

WOMAN 1: Usually politically motivated, but any group of people or a person that strikes terror into the heart of innocent people.

WOMAN 2: I think once civilians are particularly targeted, that for me is terrorism.

WOMAN 3: Before this all happened, before September 11, it wasn't a word that got thrown around a lot. Now it is. Now whenever they use the word 'terrorism' they have an image of someone who looks Middle Eastern.

JENNY BROCKIE: Just a few of the thoughts of our focus group here tonight. So let's have a look at how some other people define terrorism. David Ervine, I'd like to begin with you. You belong to a Protestant terrorist organisation and you spent five years in jail after being caught with a bomb. Were you prepared to kill civilians?

DAVID ERVINE, FORMER ULSTER VOLUNTEER FORCE: I was prepared to kill. I think I'd have preferred to have believed, certainly in hindsight, that I was not desirous to kill civilians but anybody who plants a bomb knows damn well that you run the risk of killing the innocent, anyone.

JENNY BROCKIE: How did you reach the stage where you could justify that to yourself?

DAVID ERVINE: Well, it's easy, actually. It may sound absurd, but it is quite easy, because no matter what I do, I always have the capacity to say but what about the other side? Look what they're doing to us. And whatever salve or oil I can pour on my troubled conscience, it's quickly cleared by the belief that we are the victim, that we are the vulnerable. And it's called - we have name for it here, it's called 'whataboutary'. What about them? But look what they did to us. And it works, I'm afraid.

JENNY BROCKIE: And do you see that in other terrorist groups? Do you see a similarity between what you were prepared to do and what's happening now with, say, al-Qa'ida?

DAVID ERVINE: It really doesn't matter whether it's Belfast or Sri Lanka or Barcelona or anywhere. Terrorism is a human issue. And it's not just regionalised. I mean certainly, there are regional conflicts but it is, I think, something invented by human beings, carried out by human beings and since we are all pretty much the same, the same sentiments apply, the same set of circumstances apply. And as I travel the world and talk to people around the world, the similarities are absolutely stark.

JENNY BROCKIE: What do you think terrorism is, David?

DAVID ERVINE: Well, I think terrorism is the expression of grievance. It has to have somewhere to come from, not a region. It has to have people to come from. It has to have a trade to come from, a nucleus or a group, that group of course can be encouraged to do the unforgivable, the unreasonable, the unhuman almost provided it has a sense of something that it can describe for itself, justification, which is "Look what they're doing to us. I am the victim here. I am truly the victim. And even though I make you a victim, I only make you a victim to point out that I am indeed myself a victim." And I think it's the same measurement right across the world.

JENNY BROCKIE: Yaakov Amidror, I'd like to come to you now. Now you're a retired Israeli general and you're a former senior intelligence officer with the Israeli Army. How do you define terrorism?

GENERAL YAAKOV AMIDROR, FORMER ISRAELI INTELLIGENCE: I think that terrorism is when the targets are pure citizens, not as an accident, not as a mistake, but when the terrorists are looking for citizens to kill - mothers, children, old people - is the main target of their action. And this is pure terrorism. There are some soft definition of terrorism but that is pure terrorism.

JENNY BROCKIE: Well, the Israelis, of course, continue to suffer greatly at the hands of Palestinian suicide bombers. But some argue that designers who help to create the state of Israel invented modern terrorism, that the bombing of the King David Hotel in the 1940s was bombed to draw attention to Israel's course and it killed many civilians. Was that terrorism?

GENERAL YAAKOV AMIDROR: This is a very good example how terrorists can act if they want to achieve the target without being real terrorists. What happened in King David, the people who drove the bomb into the hotel - my mother was one of the member of this same organisation - called the manager of the hotel and told him, you know, "There is a bomb in the hotel, go out of the hotel because otherwise you will be bombed and suffer." He decided with his arrogance not to go out of the hotel.

JENNY BROCKIE: So the warning made a difference, from your point of view?

GENERAL YAAKOV AMIDROR: The warning made a difference because the civilian could help themselves and go out and save their life. This is the whole difference.

JENNY BROCKIE: But 91 people died, and a lot of them were civilians.

GENERAL YAAKOV AMIDROR: Yes, of course, civilians who were for the British occupation forces. It was not civilians in a bus on the road.

JENNY BROCKIE: The IRA of course, issued warnings before its bombs went off. Was that a justification for what the IRA -

GENERAL YAAKOV AMIDROR: It's not justification, but it makes the difference between the behaviour of people who are pure terrorists and those who are fighting to achieve a political target with some means which can be justified or cannot be justified.

JENNY BROCKIE: David, you said you wanted to make a comment on that?

DAVID ERVINE: Yeah, I think that one of the ridiculous points was that somehow it was the arrogance of the manager's fault rather than the terrorist who plants the bomb. Terrorism is wrong, but one has to remember that it comes from concepts of superiority versus inferiority and when that inferiority exists, it allows people to take on things that they themselves would never have previously have done. You know, I mean, I could never have dreamed that I would have been a terrorist, but I was and in danger if I lived in bad circumstances, of being so again. And I don't even baulk at the word 'terror'. The general want always to be a good general but what does he want the terrorist to be - a bad terrorist? If it is about terrorising, then he mentioned the words, he used the word 'pure terrorist'. Well, I suppose every terrorist who had taken that path would want to be exactly that, the pure terrorist. Of course what we're doing to humankind in the meantime is quite bloody awful.

JENNY BROCKIE: Renee, I'd like to bring you in here because your mother was killed in the Bali bombing. I wonder what goes through your mind when you hear people talking about terrorism like this?

RENEE FOWLER (BALI): I just - I don't agree there's any justification for killing anybody, whether it be fighting for a purpose or - to kill an innocent person that's got nothing to do with their fight is just wrong, and you're destroying thousands of lives in the meantime.

JENNY BROCKIE: And you've experienced that first-hand, obviously.

RENEE FOWLER: Yeah, my life was destroyed because of terrorism and I'm an innocent person and so was all the other people that were in Bali that night.

JENNY BROCKIE: Peter Hughes, you were standing beside the Bali suicide bomber, you suffered horrendous burns and injuries. What do you make of people who are prepared to do these sort of things and what do you think when you hear David describe what it was like for him and the mentality he had when he was doing those things or when he was a terrorist?

PETER HUGHES (BALI): Oh look in respect to David, I think I'm looking at a criminal. I think, you know, these so-called terrorists you call them, I call them criminals, I think that, you know, they collectively come together and they plan these sort of acts and I'm not quite sure why they do it. I don't think they really understand themselves. I hate criminals, and that's basic. And at the end of the day, I see terrorists as criminals. And I think terrorists really need to understand one thing, that it can only go on for a certain amount of time. And I think that it might not happen in our generation now but we need to try and work together and get our governments together and understand it's the kids now we need to educate. Probably down the lines, because at the moment - I'm 44 years old now, it's really done something to my kid Lee, you know, he's 23, he's just turned 23. It's made him adjust to what he's had to do and a lot of his friends and a lot of other people throughout Australia and especially kids. And I think we really need to sort of adjust and say "Hey David, you know, you've done your time. It's good to see you're out there trying to make a difference now because really, when you where at it mate, you were just a low-life criminal."

JENNY BROCKIE: David?

DAVID ERVINE: Well, I think everyone again has to have somewhere to come from and what I've just heard - and I understand the sentiment, and I couldn't fault the pain and horror that people have gone through and what it makes them feel. But the truth of the matter is, of course, that in some parts of my society I'm a hero, in other parts I'm detested. Some people will incorporate their concept of morality upon me and that what effectively we don't understand about terrorism is that they will immediately begin to identify their own battle honours, they'll have their own little flags, they'll create their own morality. It is almost pleasurable for a terrorist to be vilified and hated from outside his tribe because it makes him almost confirmed, if you like, as welded within the tribe that they come from.

JENNY BROCKIE: Did real people, real people like Renee and Peter, ever come into your thinking? Real people will families, with lives, with loves, with children, with - did you ever think about that?

DAVID ERVINE: I don't want to be - well, I've had family killed, I've had friends who've landed at my feet with brains and blood splattered over the floor. I've had those experiences. And many people in our society will have had those experiences. Is that another victim? Or is it somehow a hierarchy of victims that we have to play out here? That pain and sorrow and tragedy lives with everybody and I don't try to justify it. I simply say to you that we need to try and understand it.

TED LAPKIN, FORMER ISRAELI SOLDIER: I think we're muddying the waters here to a certain extent and we need to distinguish between what is a legitimate act of war. David wouldn't have been a terrorist if he had taken on the British Army, but the fact that these organisations in Northern Ireland and the Palestinian organisations, for example, they bomb coffee houses and they bomb pubs and there's a moral difference and also a legal difference in international law between going after an armed military force and going after a quintessentially civilian target. And David took the easy way out. He went after civilians. He didn't have the guts to take on the British Army.

JENNY BROCKIE: I'd like to bring -

DAVID ERVINE: They weren't my enemy. They weren't my enemy.

JENNY BROCKIE: I'd like to bring Greg Barton in here because Greg, I wonder whether this question of a definition is easy. Is there a simple definition of terrorism?

GREG BARTON, POLITICS, DEAKIN UNIVERSITY: No, there isn't, and of course we can have a very broad definition but it doesn't do us much good. But even if we go for a narrow, more focused definition, we have to realise there are different kinds of terrorisms. That's not to say one is better than the other, but there are different motivations. We're living in an age now where we're not just looking at ethno-nationalist causes promoting terrorism, in the manner of the IRA. We're looking at people who see themselves as locked in a cosmic struggle and therefore it's much harder to negotiate, in fact it's impossible to negotiate ultimately with people who see themselves in a struggle between good and evil. If it's ethno-nationalists, you can talk about ways of solving the problem politically.

JENNY BROCKIE: So you can bring people to the negotiating table as we've seen in Northern Ireland?

GREG BARTON: But as I say with Northern Ireland, that's the only way.

JENNY BROCKIE: And in the Middle East, in fact, at various stages.

GREG BARTON: Yes, indeed, the only way out is negotiation. Unfortunately, the reality is we live in an age in which it's got a whole lot more messy.

JENNY BROCKIE: Some other people wanted to make comments, yes?

ALI KAZAK, PALESTINIAN DELEGATION: I'd like to speak about states' acts of terrorism. Now, no one is speaking about states' acts of terrorism, which is very essential. Let me just give you some figures. There are in the last three years 920 Israelis killed - and this is the statistics from the Israeli Army website - 2,913 Palestinians killed, 85% of them are civilians and over 500 children. Now, this is - these are acts of terrorism described in international law as war crimes. Now when we are speaking about terrorism, we have to take this into consideration and we have to deal with the root cause of terrorism in order to put an end to it. Furthermore, occupation and ethnic cleansing are the highest form of terrorism.

JENNY BROCKIE: General Amidror?

GENERAL YAAKOV AMIDROR: I want to say of course many Palestinians are civilians, you have to remember the one who entered to the coffee shop in Jerusalem was a civilian. He bombed himself as a civilian. He act as civilian, he come there as civilian. More than that, he prepared –

ALI KAZAK: But if you have a uniform on it doesn't legitimise your acts of terrorism just because you have a uniform -

JENNY BROCKIE: Can we just hear from the general for a moment?

GENERAL YAAKOV AMIDROR: I know that you have problems with your politeness...

JENNY BROCKIE: Could we just have one at a time, could you please let the general speak, please.

GENERAL YAAKOV AMIDROR: When these people enter into a coffee shop, they are civilians. You cannot identify but as a civilians. Only when they bomb themselves with people, with old fathers and mothers, with children together they're still civilians.

JENNY BROCKIE: Can you justify going after civilians like that? Can the Palestinians justify bombing a bus that's full of children going to school?

ALI KAZAK: Absolutely not, and we continuously condemn that, and this is not acceptable. You might laugh, but this is the fact of the matter. We are victims of states' acts of terrorism. Israel was established by three terrorist groups, the Haganah, the Stern Gang and the Irgun. It was established by act of terrorism. I mean they - it's very well recorded when they used to bombard our buses and our markets and our civilians, they ethnically cleansed over 70% of the Palestinian people and committed 36 massacres. Now, they didn't warn those people, they didn't warn the people of Deir Yassin that they are coming to kill them, they just committed that massacre.

JENNY BROCKIE: Yes, I just wanted a comment from Susan Nasir. Susan, I know you have a specific story about something that happened to a member of your family and I just wonder what your reaction is to this as a Palestinian, really.

SUSAN NASIR: Well, I'm just finding it extremely fascinating the general's definition of the idea of terrorism. Now my cousin, Ahmed, was 23 years old when he was killed by the Israeli Army. He was with two friends. He was in the eastern part of Gaza City. He was on a piece of land that was considered confiscated land because there was a road close by that led to the Israeli settlement of Netsarim. Now he was shot, him and his two friends were shot for being on that road. The Israeli radio announced at 2pm that afternoon that some young men had been shot and killed. It wasn't until 3pm the next day that ambulances were allowed to get to the bodies. Doctors who examined the bodies confirmed they basically bled to death and the evidence of that is that minutes after these men were killed, the families tried to ring them on their mobile phones. The army personnel answered the calls and confirmed that they were dead or about to die. Now, is that not an act of terrorism? Is that a humane, moral act?

JENNY BROCKIE: And Rabbi Franklin, who's sitting next to you, of course has he own story too, don't you?

RABBI SELWYN FRANKLIN: Well, my brother's daughter was on her way back home to Jerusalem completed her studies, going home to a celebratory meal in Jerusalem, phoned her parents to say she'd come back with a friend, was just waiting to come home on the bus and they heard the sirens immediately thereafter, tried to phone her, were unable to get through because a homicide bomber had come from the Bethlehem area and killed her outright and six other people with her.

RIHAB CHARIDA, PALESTINIAN ACTIVIST: I think in regards to terrorism generally, whether it's in Palestine or anywhere else, the root cause of terrorism is oppression and anybody that's genuinely interested in stopping terrorism, whether it's in Palestine or in Northern Ireland or in, you know, Sri Lanka or wherever it is, anybody who is genuinely interested in getting rid of suicide bombings or any attacks, must be opposed to the reasons why suicide bombings happen to begin with. Suicide bombings are a direct result of oppression and occupation.

JENNY BROCKIE: But does that make them justifiable?

RIHAB CHARIDA: It basically - let's not forget that occupation under international law is illegal. Resisting occupation is legal under international law. Let's just go to international law. Resisting occupation...

JENNY BROCKIE: So are you saying that you do think the suicide bombings are justifiable?

RIHAB CHARIDAI: I say yes, because the Palestinians have tried for many years other means of fighting, you know, their cause.

JENNY BROCKIE: That's one of the things that we decided to talk to our focus group tonight, about this question. Before we began, we asked our focus group did they think terrorism could ever be justified? And the results might surprise you. 41% of our focus group said yes, 38% said no. I wonder if those of you in the focus group who said that you felt sometimes terrorism could be justified why you said that.

ABE QUADAN, PEACE AND CONFLICT STUDIES CENTRE: I think, I'm like the general I don't condone violence, terrorism is terrorism, killing is killing. Let us call it by a name. Killing an Israeli Army officer or killing civilians is as bad as killing a Palestinian regardless what that Palestinian is. Let us call it - I mean, the whole issue here is let us not be victim and play the aggressor at the same time. Just terrorism is never justified killing is not justified. We need to condemn it. Let us start from that point and then we start to understand it better.

JENNY BROCKIE: Mark, up the back, I know that you had something to say about this.

MARK, FOCUS GROUP: I agree with the gentleman from Belfast a little bit about superiority and inferiority. Basically, you look at half of your African leaders today, most of them were involved - and Israeli leaders of the early ones - they're all involved in terrorism yet they're the respected leaders of their countries today. So it's a matter of interpretation and time that has a lot to do with it. Today's terrorists, but if they end up on the superior side, some time in the future, then all of a sudden they're heroes.

RIHAB CHARIDA: You define terrorism - sorry, the general from Israel - you define terrorism as an act that targets civilians, this is pure terrorism when the target is solely civilian. This is your definition that I totally agree with you. Now I don't know how else to explain an Apache helicopter, an Israeli Apache helicopter bombing civilian building in the dead of night that houses women and children and the Israeli Army justifies this to get to one Hamas leader or one so-called terrorist. Now, we don't have to go back as far as King David before the establishment of Israel to talk about Israeli terrorism. Israel honoured - I totally agree that suicide bombings are totally devastating and they are a form of terrorism and they are totally devastating. But in comparison, Israeli terrorism, for one kills more people - this is a fact, we just have to look at the facts on the ground - for two, it happens on a much more regular basis. Now on a daily basis, Israeli tanks, Apache helicopters, bulldozers storm into overpopulated residential areas. Now when you throw a bomb you are going to hit civilians.

GENERAL YAAKOV AMIDROR: No, this is something that I have to answer. What is your name?

RIHAB CHARIDA: My name is Rihab.

GENERAL YAAKOV AMIDROR: It's a very good question, Rihab. You know, I will tell you a story and you will answer.

ALI KAZAK: This is unfair If he's going to answer everything -

GENERAL YAAKOV AMIDROR: The time is 4:00 in the morning... - This is reality. The time is 4:00 in the morning, the intelligence officer comes to the commander and says "We have very good information. Tomorrow morning within four hours two gentlemen are going to meet each other, one of them will give the other one explosion in the middle of Jenin. And if we will kill them in this place, we will save the life of at least 20 Israelis and maybe 60 will be injured. If we will not do it, if we will not do it, this - the gentlemen will go out of Jenin and we will lose him and we could not trace him and he will make his action. But you have to take into consideration, Mr General, that if you are doing this and Israeli generals as well. That if you are doing it four Palestinians will be killed by the Apache bombs.” Now you have to decide to save the life of the 20 Israelis because of this operation, or not to kill the five Palestinians or to kill the four Palestinians and to save the lives of these 20 Israelis. And it is more than that.

JENNY BROCKIE: General Amidror, General Amidror are you saying...

GENERAL YAAKOV AMIDROR: At the end of the day, the Government of Israel should defend its civilians.

JENNY BROCKIE: Are you saying there is justified killing of civilians, that's what you're saying?

GENERAL YAAKOV AMIDROR: Of course! When we have to defend ourselves as we know that this terrorist is organising himself in a house somewhere and if we will not kill him, 20 Israeli will be die? This is a justification! The Australians, the British, the French, everybody will act the same if this is the occasion.

RIHAB CHARIDA: The security of the occupier is more important than the occupied? It's absurd.

JENNY BROCKIE: I think you've had a fair go. Susan Nasir up the back. General Amidror, I am going to stop you there. Susan Nasir, could I have a comment from you?

SUSAN NASIR: I'm finding it really interesting that he's justifying the killings of civilians at all when the whole issue for you is Israeli civilians being killed within Israel. So are the lives of the Israeli civilians more valuable than the lives of the Palestinian civilians?

GENERAL YAAKOV AMIDROR: Yes, 20 Israelis are more than five Palestinians, yes. Yes, it's very easy to defend.

JENNY BROCKIE: Could I please stop this discussion at this point because we are getting completely bogged down in the Middle East and it seems to me that there are broader questions that I'm interested in, particularly interested in the focus group's attitudes on some of this. Now, some of the people in the front row from our focus group, when you were asked about what you thought about terrorism and whether you thought it was justified, what did you say, Susan?

SUSAN, FOCUS GROUP: I said that what our friend in Belfast said actually, that one man's terrorist is another man's martyr, I use the word 'martyr' rather than 'freedom fighter', it can be viewed that way. And I said that I thought terrorism could be justified. I now feel absolutely dreadful about having said that, made that remark, but what I meant...

JENNY BROCKIE: Why do you feel dreadful about it now?

SUSAN: Because I've got Israel and Palestine on either side of me. I now know what it feels like to be living in those countries actually. But I don't mean to be facetious about that.

JENNY BROCKIE: No, I think that's very interesting.

SUSAN: What I - when I said that it could be justified, I was talking really about a resistance group to a form of tyranny. If we go back to the time of Nazi occupation of anywhere, the people, the civilian groups who took up resistance struck terror, hopefully, into the hearts of the Nazis. That is a definition of terrorism.

TED LAPKINS: They were fighting the German Army. They were fighting a military force.

JENNY BROCKIE: Let Susan finish. I think what Susan is saying is very interesting.

SUSAN: And I believe that they were right to do that. I believe for the future of my children and my grandchildren, my generations to come, that I would probably be a terrorist in the sense that I would resist.

JENNY BROCKIE: The other Susan down here, you were another one who said you thought it could sometimes be justified.

SUSAN 2: No, no, I actually said that I didn't feel it could be justified. I wasn't probably thinking of it on the same level as my friend was. I was thinking more how I personally could ever justify killing another human being, even in war. My father was in the Second World War and he found it very difficult to have to think about the actual fact of killing another human being even though he knew they were the enemy. That that person had a family, that person had someone who loved them and I sort of look at it from that point of view. I really don't know - I'm taking it more of the point of view that I don't know how I could kill another human being.

ABU BAKAR BASHIR INTERVIEW:

JENNY BROCKIE: Well, we've been talking about terrorism with a clear political agenda, that's one thing, but what about terror that takes the name of God. Insight's Fanou Filali recently travelled to Jakarta to talk to the alleged spiritual leader of the Bali bombers, Abu Bakar Bashir. This exclusive interview was conducted in Jakarta Prison where he's currently serving a 4-year sense for treason.

ABU BAKAR BASHIR (Translation): Only dishonest and stupid people deny that the CIA used Bali for their own purposes. Stupid and dishonest people. It's obvious.

REPORTER, FANOU FILALI: This is the man the Bali bombers look up to. Abu Bakar Bashir is the alleged leader of Jemaah Islamiah, the group responsible for the attacks in Bali and the Marriott Hotel bombing in Jakarta last year. Insight smuggled the camera inside the jail to meet the man suspected of leading one of the most active terrorism networks in the region.

ABU BAKAR BASHIR (Translation): America seems to have been predestined by Allah to be the instrument of the evil one. An evil spirit called Dajal will descend to earth. So the Prophet predicted. America, the Jews and the European infidels are all instruments of evil.

FANOU FILALI: For Bashir, the real terrorists are America and Australia.

ABU BAKAR BASHIR (Translation): It's America who terrorises nations and kills many people. America is the terrorist, not Osama bin Laden... he is defending himself and the Muslim world. If we're talking about terrorists, it's America, people who don't show their real intentions. It's just America's tricks. America and Australia. They want to make the Indonesian government oppress their Muslim community.

FANOU FILALI: Bashir likes to describe himself as a peaceful priest, but when it comes to violent jihad or struggle against the enemy, he's unrepentant. His support for the Bali bombers is unflinching. Some are his former students.

ABU BAKAR BASHIR (Translation): So I say to Muslims that to call them terrorists is a big sin. People who call them terrorists are sinners. They are Mujaheddin, defending Islam. Defending Muslims and Indonesians.

REPORTER (Translation): Many of those involved in the bombings came from Ngruki.

ABU BAKAR BASHIR (Translation): That's true! I'm glad many Ngruki graduates dare to oppose America. You have to understand... I'm grateful they are part of the jihad against America. But I don't agree with their methods. Because they can lead to slander. But I may be wrong to disagree. In Allah's eyes they may be right or I may be. That's how it is. Even if they're wrong I hope Allah rewards them. I hope they're blessed. I hope they were sincere with no motive but to oppose the American criminals.

JENNY BROCKIE: Abu Bakar Bashir.

TARIQ RAMADAM INTERVIEW:

JENNY BROCKIE: Well, joining us now from Geneva, a man who has a few things to say about Islam, Tariq Ramadam. His grandfather founded the radical Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt and Tariq Ramadam now lectures on Islam at university in Geneva. Thanks very much for joining us, Tariq. Why is this message that we've just seen from Abu Bakar Bashir so potent for some Muslims? Why do they see the West as such a huge and hateful enemy?

TARIQ RAMADAM, MUSLIM SCHOLAR: Thank you for your invitation first, and I think we have to put things into context. The perception is that this black and white perception of reality that the West is just oppressing the Islamic world and that we have to react and reaction is legitimate and to react violently is legitimate is a perception which is coming from a very - the situation of the Muslims and especially in Indonesia or other countries in the Third World is that they are living oppression and that the West is supporting dictatorships and supporting very bad governments. But I think that, from the Muslim viewpoint, it's very important for us to say, to explain that there are different readings of our sources, that it's not legitimate for us as Muslims just to say that we can kill an American or a Jew or a Christian only because they are American, Jews or Christians. This is a very bad and narrow understanding of our religion.

JENNY BROCKIE: We've been talking tonight a lot about political, ethno-political terrorism, and terrorism that is really about trying to get to the negotiating table ultimately, sometimes trying to get a clear political goal. I suppose what people find most confusing about al-Qa'ida is there doesn't seem to be one clear political goal. It just does seem to be a broader hatred that's leading to this kind of terrorism.

TARIQ RAMADAM: It's both, I think that you are right. We have to deal from within the Islamic world and from within the Islamic communities, we have to deal with these readings, which are radical and literalist readings of our sources, legitimising violence against the others. Saying, for example, that it's exactly the same to kill, you know, the attacks against the World Trade Centre in the States are legitimate in the Islamic teachings. I think that this is really important for us as Muslims to say that this is not, this has nothing to do with the Islamic teachings we are following and that the reading, for example, to make a difference between resistance to an oppression and just an offensive struggle and to kill innocent people.

JENNY BROCKIE: Greg Barton, I wonder what you think about al-Qa'ida? I'd like to talk a little bit more about that because do you think that this kind of terrorism where religion is so central as we're seeing now and as we've seen since September 11 is fundamentally different to the Palestinians and say, the Tamal Tigers. Are we dealing with something quite different and does that mean we have to approach it very differently?

GREG BARTON: We are indeed dealing with something that's very different and we do have to approach it differently. We have to understand though it uses local causes, it uses ethno-nationalist grievances, it uses grievances about justice to recruit. At the core, the core vision of the struggle of good against evil is something that's non-negotiable. It's not the old kind of terrorism where we can work out an agreement. It's something that can never be satisfied. But we're accustomed to think of al-Qa'ida as being one simple thing. It's actually a messy bundle of overlapping networks using local grievances but the people who came to the crucible of Afghanistan and returned, in this case to South-East Asia, the vision of leaders like Abu Bakar Bashir is one of a cosmic struggle in which there is no answer.

JENNY BROCKIE: Well, let's take a look at what one group of moderate Muslims in Indonesia is doing to try to counteract religious extremism. Fanou Filali again.

LISA'S STORY:

FANOU FILALI: Friday prayer in the busy neighbourhood of Ciputat, south of Jakarta. Friday's when young Muslim activists like Abdul Asheed hope to get their message out. Abdul Asheed is part of the student organisation responsible for the publication of the bi-monthly pamphlet about moderate Islam.

LISA NUHAMAIDAI, EDITOR (Translation): What do you think of our magazine?

ABDUL ASHEED, MUSLIM ACTIVIST It's good. It's good to read... it broadens my horizons.

LISA NUHAMAIDAI: Is this the first time you've read it?

ABDUL ASHEED: I read it every Friday.

FANOU FILALI: Lisa Nuhamaidai is the editor of the Eltasamoh pamphlet. She believes you can fight the war on terrorism with words, not weapons.

LISA NUHAMAIDAI (Translation): We must try to eliminate things which are regarded as terrorism. We must try to solve problems without going back to the old ways, the law of the jungle where the strongest wins.

FANOU FILALI: But it's a delicate balancing act keeping the dialogue alive. Alta Samu, who once published an editorial on the Middle East conflict, and didn't describe it as a religious war.

ALTA SAMU EDITORIAL: There are several reasons to deny the claim that the conflict between Israel and Palestine is a religious conflict...

FANOU FILALI: And on Zionism:

ALTA SAMU EDITORIAL: A secular ideology that is not concerned at all about Jewish religious doctrines.

LISA NUHAMAIDAI (Translation): Some people get angry. Some even threatened to smash... well, they said they would raid our office. They threatened our deliver people.

FANOU FILALI: To stay afloat, Alta Samu needs money and the United States is where they found it.

LISA NUHAMAIDAI (Translation): We actually receive funding from America. We have a fundamental principle. As long as they don't intervene too much in our decisions we can accept it, but with very stringent conditions.

FANOU FILALI: They may have American money to keep them going, but the content is the problem for the mosque on the campus of Muhammadiyah University. The pamphlet has been banned because it's considered unIslamic.

LISA NUHAMAIDAI: He said that our bulletin not Islam, not Islam 'gafah'.

REPORTER: How do you feel about that?

LISA NUHAMAIDAI: It's OK. It's a fighting force. It's OK that it's a democracy.

JENNY BROCKIE: Well, Fanou Filali with that report. Imam Hady, I wonder what you think when you see that? Do you think that kind of thing is likely to be effective?

IMAM AMIN HADY: Yeah, I think so, that in modern time where conflict happen here and there. I think the main thing for us now how to develop and to encourage this kind of view in any part of the world. When people have different kind of view they can sit together and they can talk and that's the only way I believe that we can solve any problem in any part of the world.

JENNY BROCKIE: Greg Barton, do you think something like that can help stop suicide bombers?

GREG BARTON: In the long run, yes, and we're talking about long-term investments. I'm tremendously encouraged, I just come back from five weeks in Indonesia and met many young people like this and it's clear that they're sincere. In many cases they have no funding, they're just contributing their own meagre savings or what they earn working outside. So banding together, forming NGOs, and to try and get this moderate message out And I think that in the long run that's what will keep the balance. At the very least, if they didn't do this, there's the danger the balance can slip in an unfortunate direction.

JENNY BROCKIE: Now Firas Naji, I'd like to bring you into the discussion here because you were a soldier in Saddam Hussein's army. You deserted back in the early '90s and came here as a refugee. I wonder looking now at what's happened in Iraq and the fact that that was so central to an argument about terrorism in Australia, do you think that the war in your homeland is helping to counteract terrorism?

FIRAS NAJI, FORMER IRAQI SOLDIER: Actually, the situation in Iraq is a big example of both terrorism whether it's state terrorism by Saddam's regime or whether it is the current terrorism which is being done by groups like al-Qa'ida, and so forth. So the biggest lesson, I think, from what's happening in Iraq is that if you have the wrong approach, you create a problem. Now terrorism in Iraq, the way we see it now, was triggered by a wrong action which is the war in Iraq and the subsequent collapse of the government and open boarders and the chaos and so forth.

RIZ WAKILI, REFUGEE: I'm from Afghanistan, and I just want to talk about war on terrorism in Afghanistan. I think that it is a very stupid comment now they're trying to use the word terrorism and terrorist as a tool. Because when we complain and we were crying about all this foreign extremists and terrorists who were supported by the United States in mid-'70s and '80s that these people are - when they carried out heaps of massacres and they destroyed schools in Afghanistan, it was quoted in the Western media as "freedom fighters are active in Afghanistan." So when my people in Afghanistan were suffering, no one cared about that. And when it came to their doorstep in the face of September 11 and in the face of Bali, then it upsets me that why it has to come to their doorstep to feel that and to feel the terror and to justify that now "We have to go after all these people." I think to me it is that they will value their people, American - I heard this, I hear this every night on TV that God bless America. Why should God bless only America? Other people in the other part of the world, they're not people? They don't bleed? They don't cry? They don't hurt?

JENNY BROCKIE: Samina, you wanted to have a say?

SAMINA YASMEEN, UNIVERSITY OF WESTERN AUSTRALIA: Yeah, I just think we're probably moving away from what you were saying, but I really agree with this gentleman's comment and if you place it in the larger context of the struggle between say al-Qa'ida and the West or the other Muslims, what gets, at least the opinion that I come to, is that American invasion of Iraq and American war on terrorism in Afghanistan in fact has created the possibility of those who were already unhappy with American imperialism or ideas to find another explanation for doing what they might have done otherwise. It's galvanised people into thinking that the world is divided into good Muslims, and bad Muslims supported by the West.

JENNY BROCKIE: Greg Barton, do you agree with Samina?

GREG BARTON: Yes, I think we have to think long-term. If we think in terms of short-term fixes we make more trouble for ourselves down the road. We've seen this already with Afghanistan. Democracy is a good thing, open society's a good thing. It certainly lessens terrorism greatly, but we have to get there first, we have to make the long-term commitment to Afghanistan and Iraq and if we don't make the long-term commitment we're going to regret it.

SAMINA YASMEEN: I think what we need to do is look at - and we haven't really talked about it - we've talked about Palestinian view and is the Israeli view and Sri Lankan and the government. What we have to look at is what makes a certain group of people go into a situation where they feel aggrieved but they also feel that it's OK for them to use force to change that situation. Now understanding those causal forces is very important. Can we change those forces, can we change the way people experience that? I think that requires a lot more.

JENNY BROCKIE: David Ervine, I wonder just quickly what you make of al-Qa'ida, what you make of all of this and whether you think as somebody who has been a terrorist yourself, whether it's possible to change people's minds?

DAVID ERVINE: I think the first issue on the agenda, and the last speaker is right, that you need an education program to understand what's going on, what drives people. But I think there's something else you must do - fundamentally you must do - is that democratic societies must protect themselves against moving from democracy. Because what we see is panic, shooting off to the right-wing attitudes, locking up people because we're afraid and don't give them their proper rights and justice. It is absolutely stupid that what we do is let the terrorist win when we panic in the face of terrorism because if we panic, we damage democracy itself. Do not do undo democratic things to protect democracy. That's the first issue on the agenda and of course the second one takes a little longer. Let's understand what creates terrorism and cut it off at its causal root. Usually it's grievance. They have to have somewhere to come from.

JENNY BROCKIE: Tariq Ramadam, final comment from you.

TARIQ RAMADAM: Yes, I just want to say two things. The first one is that we have to be very careful, you know, you started your discussion about terrorism and then about Iraq and Palestinian issue. I think that we have to be careful when we discuss about Islam because all the perception is that when we discuss about terrorists we discuss about Islam, and when we discuss about Islam we discuss about terrorists. We have to remind people that these are minority groups and they are working, they are visible, what they are doing is covered by the media but it's not the reality of the great majority of the Islamic community throughout the world. What you said about this group of Muslim woman working in Indonesia is the reality of many, many, many Muslims throughout the world and the Islamic world. And we have to say very, very clearly for example that the West should not spread the fear among the Western people about Islam and terrorism or what is going on the in the Islamic world. And when we discuss about Afghanistan and Iraq we are always speaking about, you know, Muslims dealing with terrorism, dealing with violence, and I think that these perception of the reality spreading in the West, the perception that we have to secure our countries and that we have to promote security policy and counter-terrorism programs and I think that these are not the answers which is needed today. For example, in the Palestinians' issue with Israel, when we listen to the people discussing on this program, we have the feeling that if we let them together we would not find a solution. It would be a violent discussion. I think that the international community should be involved in it and say to the Israeli Government stop state terrorism and say to the Palestinian now we are trying to find a just solution. But if there will not be a just solution, there will not be peace and non-violent solution. I think this is all what we have to say and to take our responsibilities as Westerners that if we want peace, if we want to stop terrorists, it's upstream. So all these effects is to promote democracy, is to promote education and to help the people find their own models and not to speak from where we saying "Yes, we are against terrorism, yes, we are against violence. But we are promoting this violence, we are promoting in the way we are dealing with the southern countries.”

JENNY BROCKIE: General Amidror, a final comment from you?

GENERAL YAAKOV AMIDROR: Yes, it's very naive to think that by promoting very nice idea you can fight terrorism. What should the Americans do after 9/11, to let the Afghanistan extremists to continue their missions around the world and not stop them? Or in Palestine, for example, after the experience that we had with this people that show us that even when we are giving them almost 100% are going back to terrorism, what is the way to do with them?

TARIQ RAMADAN: It's not true, it's not the reality.

GENERAL YAAKOV AMIDROR: It's exactly the reality Tariq, and you know it's the reality but it's your way to react when you see the reality.

JENNY BROCKIE: It's definitely going to be a disputed reality, I think, and I don't think we're going to resolve the Middle East issue here tonight and clearly –

GENERAL YAAKOV AMIDROR: Tariq knows more than many others the very, very people who learn a lot in the West - they are very sophisticated, some of them even PhDs - but at the end of the day they're one, they are group of those who are leading the extremists in the Muslim world. So I am not sure that this is the problem.

TARIQ RAMADAM: It's not acceptable to hear this. It's not acceptable to say this.

GENERAL YAAKOV AMIDROR: It's true. Do you want to hear names? In Sudan?

TARIQ RAMADAM: It's not acceptable, we are condemning - We are condemning extremists, we are condemning radicalists and we are condemning terrorists but at the same time you are saying let the people get justice. If you want peace in the Middle East, we have to stop this deterrence coming from Israel. This is what we want. But if we speak about justice, you are always saying that when we say justice, it means in our minds terrorists, this is not acceptable. Let us be frank, sincere. If we want peace in the Middle East it will be also by the intervention of the international community and when you listen to the international community you should understand in Israel that what you are doing now with this wall, what you are doing now against the Palestinian civilians is not acceptable.

JENNY BROCKIE: Tariq Ramadam, I'm going to stop you there. I'm going to stop both of you there because we are going to get back into a discussion about the Middle East and I would like to actually wrap this up now. And I would like to go - I would like now to move to our people here who experienced the Bali bombing because I think getting back to what the victims feel about this is fairly important at this stage. Peter Hughes, after what you went through in Bali, how do you want to see terrorism dealt with?

PETER HUGHES: Look, I think the United Nations, every government around the world in their own state, they should have a voice to try and work it out within themselves as a group and try and work something between - Look, I don't know if it's just terrorists to me. It's just a fact there's a criminal element that go out and do these acts and whether it's for a reason - against each other, I don't think that's a solution. I think the governments from all the way around the world - and I sort of agree with a lot of people what you say from different sides, but at the end of the day, people got to stop killing people, you know? I think it's very, very important that you know - honestly, to have a suicide bomber right next to you and you get splattered, basically with his body, you know, you feel sorry for that person that did that. And I shouldn't be feeling sorry because he was the guy that sort of pushed everyone out on the street and then we've got to face the car bomb that's out the front that killed 88 innocent people from 22 countries from around the world. And at the end of the day, you know, you've got Amrozi and all these other blokes standing behind watching, thinking "Well, I've done a great thing and I'm going to be a martyr" or something like that. But really, like, we're Australian people. Like, we are so multicultural, we accept everybody, you know, we aren't racist, you know, we help others before we help each other. The other thing we do is we fight. But it's not about fighting to kill somebody. We need to get to a solution that Hey, lets get all our governments from all the way around the world, let's get together, that's why we've got the United Nations, you know, let's just get to a solution. Because hey, I might be only 54% burnt and I went through a lot of pain to get to where I am now, but I tell you what, I'm less forgiving but I'm not about to go out and kill somebody because they sort of interrupted my life and killed 88 Australians. I think we just all need to group as a world and let's find peace, let's get to our kids, just say to our kids it's a good world.

JENNY BROCKIE: I'm afraid we will have to leave it there and I know we could go on a lot longer. I'd like to thank all of you for joining Insight tonight, everybody who was here, especially David Ervine in Belfast, Tariq Ramadam in Geneva, General Amidror and Greg Barton here with me in Sydney. Thank you very much, and those of you in the audience with personal stories, I know we couldn't get to all of them but thank you all very much for taking part in this program tonight.