Green Mtn
location: Observing the Progressive madness with considerably less amusement.
listening to: Grandchildren, the best reason for saving the future.
registered: 2004.04.03
posts: 2617
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[view all posts]
Hello All:After I read this I was shocked. I remember blurting aloud that if
I'd known this I never would have gotten married. Of course, the
Mrs required an explanation.My initial questions remain:
- are the legal aspects regarding our children's ownership true?
- if we refrain from civil marriage, does the state still inherit the
fruits of our union? (Are our children ours or the State's?)
- how is the Napoleanic Code different?
- what critical issues did I pass over?I would appreciate any clarification or observations.
Secular Marriageby Virgil Cooper About 15 years ago, my former wife of 26-1/2 years, filed for
divorce. We had seven children, five daughters and two sons. Our
youngest at the time, our second son, was five years old. At the time, I prepared a counterclaim to the Petition for
Dissolution her attorney filed in Domestic Relations (DR) court. I
met one afternoon with the head of the Maricopa County Superior
Court, Marriage License Bureau, in downtown Phoenix. The marriage license bureau was headed by a young woman of
about age 25. I asked her to explain to me the general and
statutory implications of the marriage license. She was very
cooperative, and called in an Assistant, a tall Black man who at the
time was working on an Operations Manual for internal
departmental use. She deferred for most technical explanations to her Assistant. He
walked through the technicalities of the marriage license as it
operates in Arizona. He mentioned that marriage licensing is pretty much the same in
the other states -- but there are differences. One significant
difference he mentioned was that Arizona is one of eight western
states that are Community Property states. The other states are
Common Law states, including Utah, with the exception of
Lousiana which is a Napoleonic Code state. He then explained some of the technicalities of the marriage
license. He said, first of all, the marriage license is Secular Contract
between the parties and the State. The State is the principal party in that Secular Contract. The
husband and wife are secondary or inferior parties. The Secular
Contract is a three-way contract between the State, as Principal,
and the husband and wife as the other two legs of the Contract. He said, in the traditional sense a marriage is a covenant between
the husband and wife and God. But in the Secular Contract with the
state, reference to God is a "dotted line," and not officially
considered included in the Secular Contract at all. He said, if the
husband and wife wish to include God as a party in their marriage,
that is a "dotted line" they will have to add in their own minds. The
state's marriage license is "strictly secular," he said. He said further, that what he meant by the relationship to God
being a "dotted line" meant that the State regards any mention of
God as irrelevant, even meaningless. In his description of the marriage license contract, he related one
other "dotted line." He said in the traditional religious context, marriage was a
covenant between the husband and wife and God with husband
and wife joined as one. This is not the case in the secular realm of
the state's marriage license contract. The State is the Principal or
dominant party. The husband and wife are merely contractually
"joined" as business partners, not in any religious union. They may
even be considered, he said, connected to each other by another
"dotted line." The picture he was trying to paint was that of a triangle with the
State at the top and a solid line extending from the apex, the State,
down the left side to the husband, and a separate solid line
extending down the right side to the wife, a dotted line merely
showing that they consider themselves to have entered into a
religious union of some sort that is irrrelevant to the State. He further mentioned that this religious overtone is recognized by
the State by requiring that the marriage must be solemnized either
by a state official or by a minister of religion that has been
deputized by the State to perform the marriage ceremony and
make a return of the signed and executed marriage license to the
State. Again, he emphasized that marriage is a strictily secular
relationship so far as the State is concerned and because it is
looked upon as a "privileged business enterprise," various tax
advantages and other political privileges have become attached to
the marriage license contract that have nothing at all to do with
marriage as a religious covenant or bond between God and a man
and a woman. By way of reference, if you would like to read a legal treatise on
marriage, one of the best is Principles of Community Property, by
William Defuniak. At the outset, he explains that Community
Property law decends from Roman Civil Law through the Spanish
Codes, A.D. 600, written by the Spanish jurisconsults. In the civil law, the marriage is considered to be a for-profit
venture or profit-making venture (even though it may never
actually produce a profit in operation) and as the wife goes out to
the local market to purchase food stuffs and other supplies for the
marriage household, she is replenishing the stocks of the business. To restate:
In the civil law, the marriage is considered to be a business
venture, that is, a for-profit business venture. Moreover, as
children come into the marriage household, the business venture is
considered to have "borne fruit."Now, back to the explanation by the Maricopa County Superior
Court, Marriage Bureau's administrative Assistant. He went on to explain that every contract must have
consideration. The State offers consideration in the form of the
actual license itself -- the piece of paper, the Certificate of
Marriage. The other part of consideration by the State is "the
privilege to be regulated by statute." He added that this privilege to be regulated by statute includes all
related statutes, and all court cases as they are ruled on by the
courts, and all statutes and regulations into the future in the years
following the commencement of the marriage. He said in a way the marriage license contract is a dynamic or
flexible, ever-changing contract as time goes along -- even though
the husband and wife didn't realize that. My thought on this is can
it really be considered a true contract as one becomes aware of the
failure by the State to make full disclosure of the terms and
conditions? A contract must be entered into knowingly, intelligently,
intentionally, and with fully informed consent. Otherwise,
technically there is no contract. Another way to look as the
marriage license contract with the State is as a contract of
adhesion, a contract between two disparate, unequal parties.
Again, a flawed contract. Such a contract with the State is said to be a "specific perforance"
contract as to the privileges, duties and responsibilities that attach. Consideration on the part of the husband and wife is the actual fee
paid and the implied agreement to be subject to the state's
statutes, rules, and regulations and all court cases ruled on related
to marriage law, family law, children, and property. He emphasized that this contractual consideration by the bride
and groom places them in a definite and defined- by-law position
inferior and subject to the State. He commented that very few
people realize this. He also said that it is very important to understand that children
born to the marriage are considered by law as "the contract bearing
fruit" -- meaning the children primarily belong to the State, even
though the law never comes out and says so in so many words. In this regard, children born to the contract regarded as "the
contract bearing fruit," he said it is vitally important for parents to
understand two doctrines that became established in the United
States during the 1930s. The first is the Doctrine of Parens Patriae.
The second is the Doctrine of In Loco Parentis. Parens Patriae
means literally "the parent of the country" or to state it more
bluntly -- the State is the undisclosed true parent. Along this line, a 1930s Arizona Supreme Court case states that
parents have no property right in their children, and have custody
of their children during good behavior at the sufferance of the
State. This means that parents may raise their children and
maintain custody of their children as long as they don't offend the
State, but if they in some manner displease the State, the State can
step in at any time and exercise its superior status and take
custody and control of its children -- the parents are only
conditional caretakers. He also added a few more technical details. The marriage license
is an ongoing contractual relationship with the State. Technically,
the marriage license is a business license allowing the husband and
wife, in the name of the marriage, to enter into contracts with third
parties and contract mortgages and debts. They can get car loans, home mortgages, and installment debts in
the name of the marriage because it is not only a secular
enterprise, but it is looked upon by the State as a privileged
business enterprise as well as a for-profit business enterprise. The
marriage contract acquires property througout its existence and
over time, it is hoped, increases in value. Also, the marriage contract bears fruit by adding children. If
sometime later, the marriage fails, and a divorce results, the
contract continues in existence. The divorce is merely a contractual
dissolution or amendment of the terms and conditions of the
contract. Jurisdiction of the State over the marriage, over the husband and
wife, now separated, continues and continues over all aspects of
the marriage, over marital property and over children brought into
the marriage. That is why family law and the Domestic Relations
court calls "divorce" a dissolution of the marriage because the
contract continues in operation but in amended or modified form. He also pointed out that the marriage license contract is one of
the strongest, most binding contractual relationships the States
has on people. At the end of our hour-long meeting, I somewhat humorously
asked if other people had come in and asked the questions I was
asking? The Assistant replied that in the several years he had
worked there, he was not aware of anyone else asking these
questions. He added that he was very glad to see someone interested in the
legal implications of the marriage license and the contractual
relationship it creates with the State. His boss, the young woman Marriage Bureau department head
stated, "You have to understand that people who come in here to
get a marriage license are in heat. The last thing they want to know
is technical, legal and statutory implications of the marriage
license." (Laughter) I hope this is helpful information to anyone interested in getting
more familiar with the contractual implications of the marriage
license. The marriage license as we know it didn't come into existence
until after the Civil War and didn't become standard practice in all
the states until after 1900, becoming firmly established by 1920. In
effect, the states or governments appropriated or usurped control
of marriages in secular form and in the process declared Common
Law applicable to marriages "abrogated." Please pass this information along and share it as widely as
possible.
–--
“Restriction of free thought and free speech is the most dangerous of all subversions.” Wm O. Douglas
“Restriction of free thought and free speech is the most dangerous of all subversions.” Wm O. Douglas
G
Green Mtn
(view)
Hello All:After I read this I was shocked. I remember blurting aloud that if
I'd known this I never would have gotten married. Of course, the
Mrs required an explanation.My initial questions remain:
- are the legal aspects regarding our children's ownership true?
- if we refrain from civil marriage, does the state still inherit the
fruits of our union? (Are our children ours or the State's?)
- how is the Napoleanic Code different?
- what critical issues did I pass over?I would appreciate any clarification or observations.
Secular Marriageby Virgil Cooper About 15 years ago, my former wife of 26-1/2 years, filed for
divorce. We had seven children, five daughters and two sons. Our
youngest at the time, our second son, was five years old. At the time, I prepared a counterclaim to the Petition for
Dissolution her attorney filed in Domestic Relations (DR) court. I
met one afternoon with the head of the Maricopa County Superior
Court, Marriage License Bureau, in downtown Phoenix. The marriage license bureau was headed by a young woman of
about age 25. I asked her to explain to me the general and
statutory implications of the marriage license. She was very
cooperative, and called in an Assistant, a tall Black man who at the
time was working on an Operations Manual for internal
departmental use. She deferred for most technical explanations to her Assistant. He
walked through the technicalities of the marriage license as it
operates in Arizona. He mentioned that marriage licensing is pretty much the same in
the other states -- but there are differences. One significant
difference he mentioned was that Arizona is one of eight western
states that are Community Property states. The other states are
Common Law states, including Utah, with the exception of
Lousiana which is a Napoleonic Code state. He then explained some of the technicalities of the marriage
license. He said, first of all, the marriage license is Secular Contract
between the parties and the State. The State is the principal party in that Secular Contract. The
husband and wife are secondary or inferior parties. The Secular
Contract is a three-way contract between the State, as Principal,
and the husband and wife as the other two legs of the Contract. He said, in the traditional sense a marriage is a covenant between
the husband and wife and God. But in the Secular Contract with the
state, reference to God is a "dotted line," and not officially
considered included in the Secular Contract at all. He said, if the
husband and wife wish to include God as a party in their marriage,
that is a "dotted line" they will have to add in their own minds. The
state's marriage license is "strictly secular," he said. He said further, that what he meant by the relationship to God
being a "dotted line" meant that the State regards any mention of
God as irrelevant, even meaningless. In his description of the marriage license contract, he related one
other "dotted line." He said in the traditional religious context, marriage was a
covenant between the husband and wife and God with husband
and wife joined as one. This is not the case in the secular realm of
the state's marriage license contract. The State is the Principal or
dominant party. The husband and wife are merely contractually
"joined" as business partners, not in any religious union. They may
even be considered, he said, connected to each other by another
"dotted line." The picture he was trying to paint was that of a triangle with the
State at the top and a solid line extending from the apex, the State,
down the left side to the husband, and a separate solid line
extending down the right side to the wife, a dotted line merely
showing that they consider themselves to have entered into a
religious union of some sort that is irrrelevant to the State. He further mentioned that this religious overtone is recognized by
the State by requiring that the marriage must be solemnized either
by a state official or by a minister of religion that has been
deputized by the State to perform the marriage ceremony and
make a return of the signed and executed marriage license to the
State. Again, he emphasized that marriage is a strictily secular
relationship so far as the State is concerned and because it is
looked upon as a "privileged business enterprise," various tax
advantages and other political privileges have become attached to
the marriage license contract that have nothing at all to do with
marriage as a religious covenant or bond between God and a man
and a woman. By way of reference, if you would like to read a legal treatise on
marriage, one of the best is Principles of Community Property, by
William Defuniak. At the outset, he explains that Community
Property law decends from Roman Civil Law through the Spanish
Codes, A.D. 600, written by the Spanish jurisconsults. In the civil law, the marriage is considered to be a for-profit
venture or profit-making venture (even though it may never
actually produce a profit in operation) and as the wife goes out to
the local market to purchase food stuffs and other supplies for the
marriage household, she is replenishing the stocks of the business. To restate:
In the civil law, the marriage is considered to be a business
venture, that is, a for-profit business venture. Moreover, as
children come into the marriage household, the business venture is
considered to have "borne fruit."Now, back to the explanation by the Maricopa County Superior
Court, Marriage Bureau's administrative Assistant. He went on to explain that every contract must have
consideration. The State offers consideration in the form of the
actual license itself -- the piece of paper, the Certificate of
Marriage. The other part of consideration by the State is "the
privilege to be regulated by statute." He added that this privilege to be regulated by statute includes all
related statutes, and all court cases as they are ruled on by the
courts, and all statutes and regulations into the future in the years
following the commencement of the marriage. He said in a way the marriage license contract is a dynamic or
flexible, ever-changing contract as time goes along -- even though
the husband and wife didn't realize that. My thought on this is can
it really be considered a true contract as one becomes aware of the
failure by the State to make full disclosure of the terms and
conditions? A contract must be entered into knowingly, intelligently,
intentionally, and with fully informed consent. Otherwise,
technically there is no contract. Another way to look as the
marriage license contract with the State is as a contract of
adhesion, a contract between two disparate, unequal parties.
Again, a flawed contract. Such a contract with the State is said to be a "specific perforance"
contract as to the privileges, duties and responsibilities that attach. Consideration on the part of the husband and wife is the actual fee
paid and the implied agreement to be subject to the state's
statutes, rules, and regulations and all court cases ruled on related
to marriage law, family law, children, and property. He emphasized that this contractual consideration by the bride
and groom places them in a definite and defined- by-law position
inferior and subject to the State. He commented that very few
people realize this. He also said that it is very important to understand that children
born to the marriage are considered by law as "the contract bearing
fruit" -- meaning the children primarily belong to the State, even
though the law never comes out and says so in so many words. In this regard, children born to the contract regarded as "the
contract bearing fruit," he said it is vitally important for parents to
understand two doctrines that became established in the United
States during the 1930s. The first is the Doctrine of Parens Patriae.
The second is the Doctrine of In Loco Parentis. Parens Patriae
means literally "the parent of the country" or to state it more
bluntly -- the State is the undisclosed true parent. Along this line, a 1930s Arizona Supreme Court case states that
parents have no property right in their children, and have custody
of their children during good behavior at the sufferance of the
State. This means that parents may raise their children and
maintain custody of their children as long as they don't offend the
State, but if they in some manner displease the State, the State can
step in at any time and exercise its superior status and take
custody and control of its children -- the parents are only
conditional caretakers. He also added a few more technical details. The marriage license
is an ongoing contractual relationship with the State. Technically,
the marriage license is a business license allowing the husband and
wife, in the name of the marriage, to enter into contracts with third
parties and contract mortgages and debts. They can get car loans, home mortgages, and installment debts in
the name of the marriage because it is not only a secular
enterprise, but it is looked upon by the State as a privileged
business enterprise as well as a for-profit business enterprise. The
marriage contract acquires property througout its existence and
over time, it is hoped, increases in value. Also, the marriage contract bears fruit by adding children. If
sometime later, the marriage fails, and a divorce results, the
contract continues in existence. The divorce is merely a contractual
dissolution or amendment of the terms and conditions of the
contract. Jurisdiction of the State over the marriage, over the husband and
wife, now separated, continues and continues over all aspects of
the marriage, over marital property and over children brought into
the marriage. That is why family law and the Domestic Relations
court calls "divorce" a dissolution of the marriage because the
contract continues in operation but in amended or modified form. He also pointed out that the marriage license contract is one of
the strongest, most binding contractual relationships the States
has on people. At the end of our hour-long meeting, I somewhat humorously
asked if other people had come in and asked the questions I was
asking? The Assistant replied that in the several years he had
worked there, he was not aware of anyone else asking these
questions. He added that he was very glad to see someone interested in the
legal implications of the marriage license and the contractual
relationship it creates with the State. His boss, the young woman Marriage Bureau department head
stated, "You have to understand that people who come in here to
get a marriage license are in heat. The last thing they want to know
is technical, legal and statutory implications of the marriage
license." (Laughter) I hope this is helpful information to anyone interested in getting
more familiar with the contractual implications of the marriage
license. The marriage license as we know it didn't come into existence
until after the Civil War and didn't become standard practice in all
the states until after 1900, becoming firmly established by 1920. In
effect, the states or governments appropriated or usurped control
of marriages in secular form and in the process declared Common
Law applicable to marriages "abrogated." Please pass this information along and share it as widely as
possible.
–--
“Restriction of free thought and free speech is the most dangerous of all subversions.” Wm O. Douglas
“Restriction of free thought and free speech is the most dangerous of all subversions.” Wm O. Douglas
